# Why can't men take responsibility for their own depraved desires? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542 "2004-05-22T17:15:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/61 "2004-05-26T05:50:11Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I was commenting on the fact that some think its a womans fault (and I’m not saying she’s dressing ho-like, just suitable for hot weather) when the men are turned on, as if woman are responsible for grown mens feelings and desires. I think there’s a difference between dressing suitably for hot weather, and dressing provocatively, and it’s usually pretty obvious which is which. If your church is telling you that you can’t wear shorts when it’s 100 degrees out, I’d find a new church, especially if the rule only applies to women. Who are you hanging out with anyway - the Amish?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/62 "2004-05-26T08:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I must chime in here. > In many churches I have been in, when summer rolls around, an annoucement is made that in church and picnics get togethers, proper dress must be worn, no short shorts, too skimpy clothes. > > This has to be directed to the women, as most of us women would ot be lust-filled looking at these guys in skimpy clothes. > > Its always seemed to be the woman’s fault: If a guy is turned on by you, and you are wearing something “skimpy” it is YOUR fault, not his. > This does not seem right to me. What would you change? And how? There is dressing to be cool and dressing to be a turn-on. The difference is pretty marginal and mostly exists between the woman’s ears. A lot of female skin on display turns men on, regardless of why it is on display. That’s like saying “gravity pulls” obviously true and not something that is going to change. Disliking the fact that your skin on display will turn a guy on regardless of whether that was your intent seems like bitching at biology. Besides, assuming the guy doesn’t try to do something about it, there is nothing to be “responsible” for. No harm no foul. I am curious though. If the church **doesn’t** make the announcement would there be lots of women running around in short-shorts and halter tops? This may cause me to re-think my opposition to religion! 😛 Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/63 "2004-05-26T09:53:02Z")
I don’t think theres any real argument here - only half assed generalisations coming from all angles. I’ll do the decent thing and quit while I still have my limbs intact. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/64 "2004-05-26T13:33:41Z")
Testy, Shorts are okay, but not short shorts. Sure, I assume women would wear the coolest outfits they could if ot censured. But then they would be assumed to be leadig into sin, as it were. Amish? 🙂 nah ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/65 "2004-05-26T17:33:55Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Testy, > Shorts are okay, but not short shorts. > Sure, I assume women would wear the coolest outfits they could if ot censured. > But then they would be assumed to be leadig into sin, as it were. I don’t think you ever answered my question. Are you saying you think women _should_ wear provocative clothing at church functions? What does “coolest” have to do with it? Are men allowed to wear provocative clothing, but not women? How are women being “censured”? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/66 "2004-05-26T17:49:17Z")
No. But then, I don’t think short shorts are provocative, myself. My problem is it makes it the womans fault, even if most don’t think she is dressing provocatively. Its the blame. Its NOT her fault if a straight man finds her attractive! Men wearing skimpy clothing would not be considered a problem, as most women aren’t turned on by a body only, not to mention most church guys don’t resemble Brad Pitt. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/67 "2004-05-26T18:18:33Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > No. But then, I don’t think short shorts are provocative, myself. 😕 Really? I think those ones where you can see the bottom fold of the butt are pretty provocative. You’re arguing dishonestly - first you were trying to make it sound like women are just wearing appropriate clothes for hot weather, but now you’re defending “short shorts”. Is that extra one or two inches in the pant leg _really_ that crucial to mitigate the effects of the sun? How is it that I, as a man, can fumble throught the summer quite well wearing _regular_ shorts, and life seems to continue? > [@](#): > > My problem is it makes it the womans fault, even if most don’t think she is dressing provocatively. Well if she’s not dressing provocatively, then there’s no problem, is there? I think you’re deliberately trying to blur the distinction between simply wearing appropriate clothing for hot weather, and dressing provocatively, just so you can’t be pinned down on the argument. > [@](#): > > Its the blame. > Its NOT her fault if a straight man finds her attractive! Who said it _was_? > [@](#): > > Men wearing skimpy clothing would not be considered a problem, as most women aren’t turned on by a body only, Dunno about that. I don’t think it’s ONLY gay men who go to Chippendale’s. > [@](#): > > not to mention most church guys don’t resemble Brad Pitt. Well most church women don’t resemble Pamela Anderson, either. What’s your point? Besides, your argument seems to be that the church doesn’t allow_anyone_ to wear inappropriate clothing, but because of _your_ self-proclaimed statement that women aren’t turned on by men’s bodies, that it somehow makes it sexist. That’s circular reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/68 "2004-05-26T18:37:07Z")
So what? Most church women don’t resemble Angelina Jolie or Halle Berry. I think that attributing “fault” is going overboard—whether fault is actually being assigned by the church/society or whether people _infer_ fault because we are such a finger-pointing culture. If I act the way I usually do, three weeks out of four my (putative) girlfriend is just peachy. One week out of four, my normal behavior makes her irritable, moody, snappish, angry, tearful, backbiting. Is her reaction _my fault?_ No—though I could try to be more understanding in that situation to keep it from happening. The situation simply _is_. Fault-finding, I think, is unproductive. If someone is blaming you or making you feel guilty or responsible, don’t let him. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/69 "2004-05-27T00:11:17Z")
I think I know what **vanilla** is talking about. I see this a lot in your fundamentalist sites and such. The idea that a woman has an obligation to be “modest” and cover herself (long skirts, blouses, no low-cut shirts or skirts), because she could “lead men into temptation”. In other words, just looking at a woman wearing shorts will drive men into a frenzy of lust. In fact, I read on one “modest clothing” site a woman who had once been assaulted by a man at her church. She blamed it on the fact that she had been wearing a body-skimming black sheath dress with heels and pantyhose (it didn’t even sound provacative-think Audrey Hepburn in _Breakfast at Tiffanys_!). And that disturbed me. No mention of what a pig the guy was for daring to touch her-she was “horrified that she lead a brother in Christ to sin.” That’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/70 "2004-05-27T00:38:24Z")
No argument here, **Guinistasia**. I don’t think anybody here is blaming the man’s _actions_ on what the woman was wearing. Yes, of course that’s repellent behavior and out of line. It is not, sadly, all that uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/71 "2004-05-27T01:47:43Z")
Thanks, Guin. Its just not the womans fault, its not like she’s wearing a thong or anything. And I doubt I’ve caused any lust lately. Not that I wear shorts; I don’t. I used to never wear them, even in 85 degrees. I used to be so thi, I felt my legs looked too bad. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/72 "2004-05-27T06:36:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And that disturbed me. No mention of what a pig the guy was for daring to touch her-she was “horrified that she lead a brother in Christ to sin.” > > That’s wrong. Well of course that’s wrong. But why the rush to judge _all_ men by the words of one fundamentalist asshole? There are also millions or maybe billions of men who _don’t_ blame women for leading men into temptation. If we’re just making the point that there are a few religious whackos out there with stupid ideas, yeah - I’ll agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/73 "2004-05-27T19:55:25Z")
Of course it’s not the fault of all men. I’m certainly not judging ALL men by one jerk. Just pointing out that the fundy set had a tendency to blame women for men “lusting after them” and even for rape. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/74 "2004-05-27T20:24:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Of course it’s not the fault of all men. > I’m certainly not judging ALL men by one jerk. > > Just pointing out that the fundy set had a tendency to blame women for men “lusting after them” and even for rape. I’m about as far from a fundamentalist Christian as you can get, but do you really think it’s fair to generalize that they “have a tendency” to blame women for being raped? 100 years ago, maybe. And even if that _were_ true, what’s the point? That some nutballs have some nutball ideas? Then we’re talking about a nutball vs. non-nutball issue, not a men vs. women issue. What **vanilla** said was that the churches she’s been in make announcements not to wear skimpy clothes, and that it “has to be directed to the women, as most of us women would ot be lust-filled looking at these guys in skimpy clothes”, and then got from there to saying “Its always seemed to be the woman’s fault”. Sorry, but I don’t follow the logic there, and there was nothing about blaming women for being raped in there at all. I vehemently agree that it’s not a woman’s fault if she is raped. VEHEMENTLY! I just don’t see how having a dress code for _everyone_ in the church gets us to that leap in logic. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/75 "2004-05-28T00:23:15Z")
I’ll look up the articles later. They may not do it directly, but it’s implied in that “women lead men to sinful thoughts by dressing skimpy” and that if you just dress modestly, you shouldn’t have a problem with being harassed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/76 "2004-05-28T06:40:32Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > To me this is representative of a whole male attitude, that although prevalent in religion, is not confined to it. Take the perverts who need a domina to force them to do depraved sexual acts - its a simple switching of responsibility because they can’t handle having such desires themselves. > > So will men ever take responsibility for their own perverted lusts, or will woman have to bear the burden forever more? Where did you get the sexist idea that women don’t have "perverted lusts’ just like men? I’ll give you a clue- they do. There are just as many female “perverts who need a domina_nt male_ to force them to do depraved sexual acts” as there are males. It is “representative” of the whole HUMAN attitude, not just males. To think that females don’t enjoy perverted & depraved sexual acts as much as men, is completely sexist. Oh, and _wrong._ :wally ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/77 "2004-05-28T10:35:24Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > In fact I am of the opinion that the two phenomena are inextricably bound together - the religious attitude which makes it acceptable to pass responsibility for lustful desires onto a woman gives license to men everywhere to do so. The religious attitude? That impresses me as a rather bizarre phrase in this context. Rape is prohibited by every religion I’ve ever seen. Why do you attribute to religion what is obviously a psychosis? In doing so, you merely validate what you say they do themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/78 "2004-05-28T11:16:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Of course it’s not the fault of all men. > I’m certainly not judging ALL men by one jerk. > > Just pointing out that the fundy set had a tendency to blame women for men “lusting after them” and even for rape. The fundy set around here uses the same logic to justify the prohibitions on women working, driving, and wearing anything other than a black sack. Men are assumed to be incapable of controlling themselves in the presence of a woman’s skin. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/79 "2004-05-29T02:26:21Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The religious attitude? That impresses me as a rather bizarre phrase in this context. Rape is prohibited by every religion I’ve ever seen. Why do you attribute to religion what is obviously a psychosis? In doing so, you merely validate what you say they do themselves. Of course they do, as the ideal. However, with some people, a little religion is a dangerous thing. Some of these so-called religious individuals will place the blame on the woman. She was dressed in a skimpy outfit, or she flirted, or whatever, so she deserves it. [Skandalons](http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/article_76.shtml): > [@](#): > > Ladies, show you care about the purity of your brothers by dressing modestly; flee anything that could cause you to become a snare, or a skandalon to them. If you will adorn yourself with godliness, you will attract men of substance to you; on the other hand, if you try to be a living lure, there is no telling what kind of person will take your bait. > [@](#): > > You see, we can’t just do as we please as Christians; maybe it doesn’t hurt you or tempt you to dress like a supermodel; but it may wreak havoc in the minds and hearts of the young men who want to dedicate themselves to God. Many, if not most men, have physical drives which are very powerful; on top of that, men are very visual. Women don’t typically have the same level of physical drive, and that drive is no where near as visual as it is for men. So it is very easy for Satan to use young women; they like all the attention and excitement, and have a lot of fun and a really good time, and just have zero clue what it does to the opposite sex. So often, they just have no idea how differently men work. And they don’t mind being oblivious on purpose, because it means they can just go on pleasing themselves, looking fashionable, and getting lots of attention and affection from the men they influence. But ladies, the Lord has said that if you are going to be a trap for one of God’s children; if you are going to keep dressing in such a way as to entice men to commit fornication or adultery with you, then it would be better for a millstone to be tied around your neck and for you to be cast into the sea. Especially in that last paragraph. Tell me that’s not disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542/80 "2004-05-29T06:33:42Z")
I dunno, Guin - I’m not convinced that site isn’t a joke, like the Landover Baptist site. It’s pretty over-the-top. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-men-take-responsibility-for-their-own-depraved-desires/246542.md?page=5)