# Why can't people understand this (covid protocols and policies vs reality) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [December 29, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178 "2020-12-29T14:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/81 "2021-01-02T04:45:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …just a reminder of exactly what it was you said. Nowhere in that quote, or anywhere else in my post did I say anyone is advocating for a total lockdown with no exceptions. If you don’t understand the post, feel free to reread and then ask questions. In case you think I’m an antiscience, antimask, or covid-hoaxer, I’m not. My family has been following the rules and advice from the start. I’ve made at least a hundred masks that have been donated to the homeless. I think New Zealand did a spectacular job, and we did unbelievably badly. No one should be going out and partying. Bars should be closed. I’m not an advocate of, pretend everything is normal, to hell with people’s lives. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And it won’t happen because almost everybody agrees that a complete and total lockdown with no exceptions would **definitely cause significant damage**. Yes, that’s my point. It’s already a trade-off. People should stop pretending it isn’t, when that’s obviously the reason no one is advocating the guaranteed Covid-eradicating solution.[quote=“Banquet\_Bear, post:79, topic:929178”] Its much too late to be arguing about trade-offs. The trade offs **have already been made**. [/quote] What? The trade-offs continue. There are always trade-offs. How hard of a lockdown should there be? Should there be harder lockdowns in other ways and school reopening prioritized, because kids are suffering damage from the closures? [quote=“Banquet\_Bear, post:79, topic:929178”] “shuttering schools taking women out of the workforce” [/quote] Who are you quoting here? This is not an accurate quote of me. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It isn’t about balancing. Its about **prioritizing**. New Zealand prioritized saving lives. Then worked to mitigate the effect on the economy. The distinction matters. I’m not interested in trading dictionary definitions. But it might explain why you aren’t understanding my post. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What you probably meant to say was that the New Zealand’s strategy **is not an option _now for America._** Yes. This thread was, I think, about the US. My post isn’t exclusively about the US, but that’s definitely the context for it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There were plenty of people here that advocated for less strict lockdowns, that we needed to “balance the economy with covid restrictions”, that we should open the borders and we would “just have to learn to live with Covid-19.” Yes, there is no doubt that New Zealand did the best it could have. It did superbly. And it was lucky. And it is now in an almost infinitely superior position to the US. And in no way would I have been advocating for a different approach for NZ at that time. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Getting the vaccine distributed as fast and as wide as possible will be the quickest and probably only way to bring the pandemic under control in America. So we should give up on any other measures? As a reminder, I asked what you think the optimal public health strategy would be. (Not what Biden says he’ll do or not do.) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/82 "2021-01-02T04:50:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Speak for yourself - this seems like utter nonsense, not a valid way for an adult to behave as part of society. Yes, but have you _seen_ how people in US society **do** behave? To wit: > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yet they’re not satisfied to be quietly noncompliant; vice-signaling is also necessary. They need to be seen loudly flouting the rules so that… uh… I thought this would make more sense when I got to this part, but it’s just not rational behavior. Narcissism? Spite? Cussedness? You tell me. Hell if I know… but we can’t deny it has been a critical factor. Under a different set of facts in the ground you could have the other scenario: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There were plenty of people here that advocated for less strict lockdowns, that we needed to “balance the economy with covid restrictions”, that we should open the borders and we would “just have to learn to live with Covid-19.” > > But the government just ignored them. Its a feature of our parliamentary system: only a single house, proportional representation, independent electoral commission, as well as an obligation to consider the Treaty of Waitangi in all decisions, it means the lobbying and the horse trading that is all too common in the United States doesn’t happen here. As loud as the Covid skeptics got (and they got plenty loud) the government didn’t have to pay them any attention at all. They just got ignored. In the US, those arguing for (various) different approaches could not simply be ignored the way the system is right now, alas. Also the current lay of the political land is that there is no “control and clarity at the top”, hell, part of the polity has been conditioned to see “control and clarity at the top” as a _threat_. In another thread I’ve pointed out that even under a different set of leaders a huge chunk of population would still be listening to disinformers – it is that pervasive. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/83 "2021-01-02T10:01:32Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Nowhere in that quote, or anywhere else in my post did I say anyone is advocating for a total lockdown with no exceptions. If you don’t understand the post, feel free to reread and then ask questions. …I quoted what you said. You set up an intentionally misrepresented position to argue against it, which is commonly known as a strawman. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > n case you think I’m an antiscience, antimask, or covid-hoaxer, I’m not. Do you think the problems with the pandemic response in America is solely driven by antiscience, antimask, or covid-hoaxers? I wish that were the case. But the problem is much bigger than that. At this stage of the pandemic in America its too late to be pointing the finger at open bars and partying as the problem that needs fixing. Your society is fundamentally broken. Everything is broken. You’ve got a president who regularly retweets covid conspiracy theories, financial relief for millions held up by a single person, you’ve got a medical system that routinely bankrupts people and is at the risk of being overrun, you’ve got the son-in-law of the President (unofficially) in charge of the pandemic and one of the first things he did (many, many months ago) was to literally steal PPE from the States, gifted them to private enterprise who then sold them back to the States at inflated prices. So it doesn’t matter if you you’ve been following the rules and that you think people shouldn’t go out partying and that bars should be closed. It doesn’t matter if you aren’t an active advocate of “pretend everything is normal.” Because everything isn’t normal. Demanding I provide you with “optimal public health strategy” when I’ve already given you the only realistic optimal public health strategy for the US means that you just can’t see how “not normal” everything is right now. If we were dealing with rational actors then the optimal plan would be what I’ve already laid out: Break the chains of transmission for three incubation periods of the virus. Managed isolation. Gold-standard contact tracing. Genomic sequencing. But you can’t even get contact tracing right. At the Whitehouse outbreak they didn’t only not contact trace properly, they literally **kept the outbreak secret**. We only found out about it because it leaked. I was shocked to hear just last month that America isn’t using genomic sequencing to trace outbreaks. As I pointed out in another thread Australia genomic sequences 58% of reported cases. New Zealand 48%. The United States only **0.3%**. America is one of the richest countries in the world, spends more money on healthcare per capita than almost anywhere else, and they aren’t using a major surveillance tool in any sort of capacity that would make a difference. America is so far behind the rest of the world its not even funny any more. Its worse than not just doing the basics right. They don’t even know what the basics are. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > Yes, that’s my point. It’s already a trade-off. People should stop pretending it isn’t, when that’s obviously the reason no one is advocating the guaranteed Covid-eradicating solution. But **it wouldn’t be a guaranteed Covid-eradicating solution.** It would be ignored because **people need to eat**. Its a strawman you used to prove your point. Nothing more. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > What? The trade-offs continue. There are always trade-offs. How hard of a lockdown should there be? Should there be harder lockdowns in other ways and school reopening prioritized, because kids are suffering damage from the closures? No, the trade-offs have already been made. You are now at the point of mitigating the damage from the trade-offs made months ago. Nowhere in America locked down as hard as New Zealand did in their first lockdown. But its that level of lockdown that you need in order to reach elimination. But you aren’t going to be able to lockdown that hard in America now. Not after months of the bullshit yo-yoing in and out of lockdown most of America experienced. Same with schools. If you had prioritized saving lives then you wouldn’t be in the position you are with worrying about “kids suffering damage from the closures.” You (as in, America) are in this position now because you thought you could balance the equation. But it was never going to be that simple. Stop looking to balance the equation. Start thinking about ways to save lives. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > Who are you quoting here? This is not an accurate quote of me. If I had intended to quote you I would have used the quote feature of the board software which would have compelled me to accurately copy your words. It was a paraphrase. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > I’m not interested in trading dictionary definitions. But it might explain why you aren’t understanding my post. This isn’t about dictionary definitions. It is about **different paradigms**. I understand your posts. I simply think you are wrong. Its like this. You start from first principles. In New Zealand that principle was “how do we save as many lives as possible?” That question was the lead in any decision matrix. So the question wasn’t should “school reopening be prioritized, because kids are suffering damage from the closures?” The question was “if we reopen schools will we increase the chance of people dying?” If the answer was yes then they didn’t open the schools. The “kids suffering damage” is obviously something that needed to be addressed. But what to do to “avoid suffering damage” was punted to the next level of decision-making once the decision was made to **not reopen schools**. Do you see how that works? The difference in paradigm changes the eventual outcome. There are actually two decisions that need to be made here and the decision on whether or not it is safe to reopen schools is prioritized over the potential long term effects of time out of school. Because here’s the thing about pandemics. **You don’t have time to fuck around.** You need to break the chains of transmission fast. Then you figure everything else out. Here is what we did with schools in March. > **[Coronavirus: What you need to know about school and uni closures](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/412489/coronavirus-what-you-need-to-know-about-school-and-uni-closures)** > > As hundreds of thousands of schoolchildren begin four weeks of lockdown, here is some practical advice and key information for all students and parents or caregivers. In addition to that they bought back Suzy Cato from retirement (equivalent to bringing back Mister Rogers from the dead) and opened a special kids TV channel. The other thing to remember was that we didn’t have months or even weeks to organize all of this. This was the equivalent of an organization that used Waterfall methodology for the last few decades completely pivoting every single process to Agile in a matter of days. Policy papers that typically took civil servants months to put together were written up in an afternoon, complete with spelling and grammar mistakes. It was an incredible effort. And something, that I’m sad to say, America is incapable of doing. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > Yes. This thread was, I think, about the US. My post isn’t exclusively about the US, but that’s definitely the context for it. The thread title doesn’t include the US, the OP isn’t specifically about the US. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > And it was lucky. Yah know, you make your own luck. The Americold outbreak in August? That was **extremely unlucky**. We still haven’t been able to figure out the source of the outbreak. It was caught late, testing numbers had fallen to record low levels, we are forever thankful that patient zero went in to get tested. But even though it was caught late and spread in the community and we had further deaths we still managed to stamp it out with most of the country in Level 2 restrictions and Auckland only going to Level 3. We made our luck there. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > So we should give up on any other measures? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You’ve literally run out of time for a more complex set of solutions. Supplement this with mask mandates and regional lockdowns with the states that decide to play along. But the strategy has to be kept as simple as possible. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > As a reminder, I asked what you think the optimal public health strategy would be. (Not what Biden says he’ll do or not do.) Well here’s the thing. I’ve been saying the same thing over and over and over again in thread after thread. I’ve said it so many times it appears I’ve developed a reputation: I’m the “New Zealand contingent.” And if you want my optimal public health strategy for a normal, functioning democracy then I will point you to any of my other posts or even the post in this thread. Lockdown except for essential services for 3 incubation periods of the virus. Managed staged reopening. Stock up on testing reagents and PPE. Develop a gold-standard contact tracing regime. Set up managed isolation facilities and close the borders. Genomic sequence cases so that you can monitor and control outbreaks. But we are beyond that point now for the US. We went beyond that point a long time ago. In a country as divided as the US is you aren’t going to convince them to lockdown harder than any states have lockdown so far for three months. That isn’t going to happen. So the optimal public health strategy is going to be the the one that would fit my first principles: saving as many lives as possible. There **isn’t time** to do anything else. **You really don’t have time to fuck around.** The Governors are out of their depth. The Federal government is essentially out of action. The attempts to mitigate exponential growth are just not strong enough. You’ve got the Christmas and New Years surges to come. This is the Hail Mary play and if America is going to play this card it won’t happen until after Biden takes office. America isn’t going to be able to lockdown out of the hole its dug itself. It isn’t going to be able contact trace its way out, it isn’t going to be able to test its way out. The will simply isn’t there. So its down to the vaccine. Because if you fuck that up then short of civil war there really is no way back. If the States continue (and in some cases where they manage to escalate) mitigation efforts and if the Federal government takes charge of the vaccination process and ramp up production and distribution efforts then you’ve got a chance. But if you half-ass the vaccine just like you’ve half-assed everything else (again, generic you not specific you) then things will not be pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/84 "2021-01-02T10:16:45Z")
You are not understanding my posts, so I’m done. You’re taking me to task for positions I don’t hold. I tried to explain better, but it didn’t work. Sorry I couldn’t explain it better. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/85 "2021-01-02T12:45:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Germany appears to be on a difficult trajectory that’s still better than the US. What’s your opinion? Well, first, I haven’t observed much that’s particularly constructive about comparing countries’ death rates like they’re wins in a league table, so I’ll leave judgments like ‘better’ out of my opinion. I also think it’s shallow reasoning to expect that every country could be assessed on one single scale. But I do think you can draw some broad conclusions. I’m happy to share my opinion about those broad conclusions, but I don’t mean this to be contentious, because I’m well aware that there is no way to prove it’s true. (Nor, and much to my overall point, do I think there’s a way to disprove it.) From what I can see, there were a number of places that managed to avoid having wide spread back in the spring but for whatever reason are not enjoying that same success now. My reasoning says that if that’s true, those places have a significantly larger proportion of unexposed people than do places that were hit hard, and barring some kind of good fortune or vaccine intervention, they’ll more or less catch up to the ones who suffered the most in the beginning. That hypothesis would seem to align with broad patterns we’ve seen and what we know about climate influencing other respiratory viruses. It feels more reasonable to me than the ‘faucet’ model that says we can turn spread on and off with things like curfews and closing nightclubs. That’s just my opinion, though, and I fully recognize that. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone else the right to their own, if those opinions weren’t being used to justify interventions that carry extraordinary costs. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/86 "2021-01-02T13:28:23Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > Well, first, I haven’t observed much that’s particularly constructive about comparing countries’ death rates like they’re wins in a league table Are you serious? How about figuring out what strategies did and didn’t work? I very much LITERALLY cannot think of a single other way to analyze how each nation is doing in a scientific way. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/87 "2021-01-02T13:31:01Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > My reasoning says that if that’s true, those places have a significantly larger proportion of unexposed people than do places that were hit hard, and barring some kind of good fortune or vaccine intervention, they’ll more or less catch up to the ones who suffered the most in the beginning. There are a number of vaccines currently being rolled out. You are 100% right, we can’t lock down forever, just long enough for the vaccine to arrive and be rolled out. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/88 "2021-01-03T03:55:30Z")
Several US states have rates lower than Germany. Should we follow their lead? ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/89 "2021-01-03T04:52:43Z")
Are you sure that’s true. I’m looking at death or cases per capita comparing German states to US. Germany has much done better. Even with Germany’s recent surge, it’s doing about the same. And, unsurprisingly, Germany’s surge appears to be reversed since its more strict lockdown on Dec 13. The US, on the other hand, looks like it’s starting off its Christmas surge. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/90 "2021-01-03T05:13:27Z")
Oregon is around 350 per million and Maine is 266. Better than the 400+ [they showed.](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries) ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/91 "2021-01-03T07:23:05Z")
The most recent whole-day Worldometer figures for Germany show 415 deaths per million overall for 2020. From the same source there are 44 US states plus DC with higher death rates [exceptions are Utah, Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, Vermont, Oregon]. The US total is, as we know, 1048 deaths per million, so Americans have died at 2.5 times the rate of Germans [or nearly 30 times the rate for Vietnamese]. In fact the only nations who the US could teach a thing or two about managing covid better would be the likes of Bosnia, San Marino, Peru and Boris Johnson’s UK. Just looking at yesterday, Germany had 11K new cases and 340 deaths - which is 131.3 cases and 4.1 deaths per million. There are only 7 US states with lower case ratios than Germany [US average 356.7] and 11 with lower death rates [US 6.34 deaths per million]. I’ve excluded some others with nil figures in case this is a weekend or holiday gap. I think that is a constructive comparison of two countries’ performances to date. Obviously trajectory is relevant as well to see how their new year unfolds, but to date Germany has shown itself capable of protecting its population far better than the US, as has most of the world. Maybe they all failed to buy into the rhetoric of Public health VS The Economy being a binary opposition that has been pushed from the very top by Trump and his acolytes from the Federal and state governments right down to cheerleaders in this forum. A convenient rhetorical tool when your main political concern is to give your rag-tag base some coherence by othering as much of the opposition as possible, once the pandemic hit the consequence was that Trump was incapable of steering to anything more nuanced that may have allowed for useful protective measures. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/92 "2021-01-03T15:50:16Z")
How would this work? Should NJ follow Maine’s lead by becoming very sparsely populated somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/93 "2021-01-03T15:55:40Z")
Oooo, maybe NJ could allow a plague to rampage through its population unchecked until it is as sparsely populated as Maine! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/94 "2021-01-03T15:57:55Z")
We have at least one poster here who would recommend that. I prefer to keep breathing, though, and don’t want to be part of that is culled on the way to immunity. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/95 "2021-01-03T15:58:13Z")
Was sparse population the secret to Wyoming’s “success”? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/96 "2021-01-03T16:00:13Z")
I guess Wyoming hasn’t been successful? NJ has been isolating and masking like a motherfucker for months, as has Maine, at least the parts I’ve been to in the last year. But, people still have to take public transportation, work in hospitals, etc., all in a densely populated area. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/97 "2021-01-03T16:11:42Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > The most recent whole-day Worldometer figures for Germany show 415 deaths per million overall for 2020. From the same source there are 44 US states plus DC with higher death rates [exceptions are Utah, Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, Vermont, Oregon]. > > The US total is, as we know, 1048 deaths per million, so Americans have died at 2.5 times the rate of Germans [or nearly 30 times the rate for Vietnamese]. In fact the only nations who the US could teach a thing or two about managing covid better would be the likes of Bosnia, San Marino, Peru and Boris Johnson’s UK. > > Just looking at yesterday, Germany had 11K new cases and 340 deaths - which is 131.3 cases and 4.1 deaths per million. > > There are only 7 US states with lower case ratios than Germany [US average 356.7] and 11 with lower death rates [US 6.34 deaths per million]. I’ve excluded some others with nil figures in case this is a weekend or holiday gap. Thanks @Banksiaman. I was too lazy to type all that out but it seems pretty obvious to me that if you’re going to look at individual US states, then you’ll have to compare German states. Very few US states have done better than the majority of German states per capita. Most importantly, Germany seems to be turning their recent surge around. The US, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/98 "2021-01-03T16:17:44Z")
Yes, Wyoming is triple deaths/100k to Maine despite being far less populated. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/99 "2021-01-03T16:55:40Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > Very few US states have done better than the majority of German states per capita. Most importantly, Germany seems to be turning their recent surge around. The US, not so much. The state under discussion, Maine, seems to be doing better than most German states. ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178/100 "2021-01-03T18:02:35Z")
Aren’t New Jersey and New York well above every other state in deaths per capita? Hasn’t the area already been ‘rampaged’? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-people-understand-this-covid-protocols-and-policies-vs-reality/929178.md?page=6)