# Why can't the patriot shoot down Hamas missles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851 "2009-01-04T21:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/21 "2009-01-05T14:12:33Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > The Germans deployed an air-to-air rocket late in World War II. > > [R4M - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4M_rocket) > > The first air-to-air missiles that I can think of were the sidewinder (IR) and sparrow (radar). Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/22 "2009-01-05T14:22:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are the Hamas rockets in flight long enough for any counter measure to acquire them as a target? To be honest, no. They’re not what Patriot was designed to do. **mks57:** The first actually working air-to-air missile was the Fairley Fireflash. The first American missile was the Falcon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/23 "2009-01-05T14:35:21Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I pretty sure the IDF has developed a laser-based missile defense system possibly capable of tracking and destroying rockets. The system has not been deployed due to a combination of factors - toxic waste being one problem (chemical laser), debris showers being another (the difference between an exploding rocket and a falling one is not always that great). That’s the (Mobile) Tactical High Energy Laser, [THEL](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_High_Energy_Laser), but it isn’t really moving forward as quickly as some would expect. Another option for dealing with the rockets could be the [C-RAM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM), which is little more than a Phalanx Close-In Weapons System teamed with a counter-battery radar. There are news reports that Israel is looking at that system, but has some reservations about its effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/24 "2009-01-05T17:36:33Z")
Both the proponents and critics were correct but comparing apples and oranges (damn lying statistics). The missiles “intercepted” the Scuds at a near perfect level. Fuze functioning indicated near enough passage to the target. “Kills” were abysmal however - and this may be the governing factor to your opinion. Problems with the early PATRIOT in destroying missile warheads: Originally designed to shoot down aircraft - It’s actually the radar that’s the amazing component. It can track and discern aircraft/missile attributes at astounding distances in detail never attained before except in large fixed installations. Warhead optimized for aircraft. The early PATRIOT warhead is a near spherical design of thousands of steel cubes “glued” together in an epoxy resin matrix that surrounds the explosive charge. The cubes were in layers and quite small - aircraft skins are not real robust except for portions of ground attack aircraft like the A-10. Fuze sensors were designed to “look” out more to the side rather than ahead of the missile. The warhead initiation train (electric bridgewire, mix of primary explosives, lead (as in “leader”), charges, booster, main charge were not designed with missile intercept in mind. The closing (and separation speeds) were multiple Mach faster with the incoming missiles than with aircraft. What happened at intercept? It may have become a debris cloud as the Scud broke up on reentry. The target may have become a fuel tank rather than the warhead. _To an above post - the missiles were never manually steered, software was adjusted to target the faster falling, more predictable flight of the warhead._ The closing speed was the key problem. As the PATRIOT passed the Scud, the fuze sensors triggered the warhead and we had an intercept. Except, the detonation would occur at the tail of the Scud or even after it had passed the PATRIOT. The rate of detonation of the explosive and the steel cubes (which initially travel at the speed of the shock wave) were slower than the relative speed of the Scud going the other direction. PATRIOT at speed Mach X plus Scud going at Mach Y. The Scud might break up from the tail being shattered or the entire missile would get pushed off course some. A new debris cloud for the next PATRIOT. Usually launched in pairs by the fire direction software. Even if detonation was close enough to the Scud warhead, the steel cubes did not have enough energy to disrupt and destroy it. The Scud warhead was robust enough to survive atmospheric reentry. Fixes to adapt the PATRIOT to missile interceptor. Fuze sensors were modified to “look forward” - anticipate the target - triggering the warhead quicker. The firing train was modified to react quicker. The electronics portion was already acting at the close to the speed of light. The chemical portion was shortened and material modified to respond quicker. Moving from .05 sec delay to .025 sec would be a big deal. The future Scuds would be flying into the explosion rather than sailing past it. The next generation warheads had much larger tungsten carbide steel cubes to insure destruction of the target if impacted. Software continually evolved to refine intercept points - direct impact was fine. Terminal guidance and control functions were “tightened up”. Latest generation PATRIOTS and family relations destroy targets through kinetic energy impacts. Initial PATRIOTs were 1960s technology - a lot has changed. Lots of lessons learned from GW I and II. Some very hard such as the fratricide incidents. There are more stories on phantom intercepts, trajectories, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/25 "2009-01-05T20:57:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Another option for dealing with the rockets could be the [C-RAM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM), which is little more than a Phalanx Close-In Weapons System teamed with a counter-battery radar. There are news reports that Israel is looking at that system, but has some reservations about its effectiveness. Wouldn’t you need a whole bunch of Phalanx units to make the effort worthwhile? (Emplacements?) ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/26 "2009-01-05T21:23:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wouldn’t you need a whole bunch of Phalanx units to make the effort worthwhile? (Emplacements?) Not to mention the rain of lead (or whatever material your bullets were made of) downrange! The CIWS is designed to essentially hurl enough material into the path of the incoming projectile to destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/27 "2009-01-05T21:57:19Z")
The C-RAM uses frangible ammunition that is supposed to disintegrate in flight. And one of the issues with C-RAM is the question of how many are needed to cover a given amount of terrain. However, they are not terribly expensive systems, as far as defense systems go. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/28 "2009-01-05T22:05:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The C-RAM uses frangible ammunition that is supposed to disintegrate in flight. > > And one of the issues with C-RAM is the question of how many are needed to cover a given amount of terrain. However, they are not terribly expensive systems, as far as defense systems go. Sure, but while putting a couple on a ship may be cheap, putting a few hundred in a neighborhood is less so. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/29 "2009-01-05T23:36:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That’s the (Mobile) Tactical High Energy Laser, [THEL](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_High_Energy_Laser), but it isn’t really moving forward as quickly as some would expect. > > Another option for dealing with the rockets could be the [C-RAM](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM), which is little more than a Phalanx Close-In Weapons System teamed with a counter-battery radar. There are news reports that Israel is looking at that system, but has some reservations about its effectiveness. Israelis developed/are developing system called [Iron Dome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome) designed specifically to intercept short range rockets, but it probably won’t be fielded before 2010. Now - if to believe Rafael specs - that would be right tool for that job. ---
**Author:** ![HumanMonkeyGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c67d28/32.png) [@HumanMonkeyGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanMonkeyGod)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/30 "2009-01-09T15:44:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are the Hamas rockets in flight long enough for any counter measure to acquire them as a target? This is a big part of the problem - the qassams have a range of 10-15km max; shooting them down over populated areas isn’t helpful, so you’d need to get them within the first mile or two of launch i.e. within 10 seconds, if that much. Another problem **puppygod** touched on is cost - it’d be missiles costing at least several hundred thousand dollars each to take out what amounts to little more than a street-pole loaded with some home-made explosive. The qassams have very little effective damage radius (I think standing 30m away from one landing would involve soiled trousers, but it’d be far enough to escape injury), it’s misleadingly generous to even call them missiles. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851/31 "2009-01-09T15:54:29Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > MSNBC said Hamas missiles are pretty much junk too. They said they are akin to making a pipe bomb. In otherwords like a pipe bomb is a unsophisticated type of bomb so are the missiles used by Hamas. > > Very much unlike the missiles used by Hezbolla Quite. They have killed 20 people in total. Ever. They are glorified bottle rockets whose impact comes from the constant debilitating stress and terror they inflict on people always having to take shelter rather than the actual physical threat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-patriot-shoot-down-hamas-missles/479851.md?page=1)