# Why Can't the US Help Itself? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 20, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517 "2014-04-20T00:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/41 "2014-04-27T00:11:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Pennies may not make economic sense. But polls indicate the American people still want them. The government giving people what they want is not a waste of tax dollars. It’s a waste of tax dollars by definition, because pennies and nickels cost about twice as much to make as they are worth. Our overbearing sentimentality about pennies then continues to generate costs in terms of the time spent transacting, sorting, transporting, and exchanging them–or the money we have to pay others to do it for us. Of course long-term historic inflation has played a huge role here, but the way to fight inflation is sound monetary policy. In that regard pennies are beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/42 "2014-04-27T15:23:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is if what people want is a stupid waste of tax dollars. Sometimes it’s the government’s job to lead and do something temporarily unpopular. > > When the Canadian government announced the intention to do away with the dollar bill and have a dollar coin, people generally weren’t happy about it. The government did it anyway, because it was the smart thing to do, and the population came around. The right thing to do was not the popular thing. The reason the coin was adopted here, and never has caught on in the USA, is that the Canadian government was serious about it and **stopped making one-dollar bills**. In a very short period of time you had no choice. You had to use the coin. Rejecting it wasn’t an option. > > Surprise, surprise; people accepted it, and eventually realized it was better. Nobody wants to go back. That won’t fly in the U.S., and it has nothing to do with sentimentality. We by and large reject the idea that the government is allowed to do things against our wishes. We view what happened in Canada as being anti-democratic. Seriously, you’ve just finally given me a reason besides the weather not to want to live in Canada. I don’t believe in the idea of government by experts. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/43 "2014-04-27T15:25:32Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > It’s a waste of tax dollars by definition, because pennies and nickels cost about twice as much to make as they are worth. Our overbearing sentimentality about pennies then continues to generate costs in terms of the time spent transacting, sorting, transporting, and exchanging them–or the money we have to pay others to do it for us. Of course long-term historic inflation has played a huge role here, but the way to fight inflation is sound monetary policy. In that regard pennies are beside the point. What I don’t get is why no one just floats the idea of making them out of something cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/44 "2014-04-27T15:28:48Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > _Retailers_ killed the dollar coins. If there’s a choice between dollar bills and dollar coins, they’re the ones who choose since you only get them in change. The government killed one dollar coins by keeping both one dollar bills and one dollar coins in circulation. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Pennies may not make economic sense. But polls indicate the American people still want them. The government giving people what they want is not a waste of tax dollars. Surely you would not suggest that there should be an opinion poll every time any government agency (e.g the army) wants to make any change that might improve efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/45 "2014-04-27T15:32:35Z")
The bottom line is that the USPS is a union success story, therefore the right will do anything to destroy it, [see here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/08/cpac-unions_n_4926345.html). Destroying another union is the motive for the onerous congressional requirements on the USPS. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/46 "2014-04-27T15:37:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Seriously, you’ve just finally given me a reason besides the weather not to want to live in Canada. I don’t believe in the idea of government by experts. This is utterly baffling to me. Could you please explain this? I’m half American (born and raised there, one American parent) and half Canadian. I can’t imagine wanting to be governed by people who were less than experts. I don’t have time to research every little issue that comes across the plate. That’s why I elect people to do it for me. I fully expect them to either be experts (in, say, the law and lawmaking) or consult with them (on the specifics of an issue, on science, etc.). That’s my biggest complain about American government: their “experts” are lobbyists, and they basically listen to money over knowledge. That’s obviously not what you’re suggesting, but what ARE you suggesting? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/47 "2014-04-28T05:23:33Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s a waste of tax dollars by definition, because pennies and nickels cost about twice as much to make as they are worth. > > What I don’t get is why no one just floats the idea of making them out of something cheaper. I can think of a couple of good reasons. First, they’d probably have to go to plastic, or some sort of ferrous alloy, the latter being likely magnetic just as many pre-Euro coins were. (I don’t know if any contemporary Swiss, EU, or UK coins are ferromagnetic.) I’m thinking the public might well be even less receptive to the idea of magnetic pennies than to the idea of eliminating them altogether. The second reason is more fundamental. To make them out of cheaper materials might seem to be a logical approach on its face, but in this we abandoned any pretense of logic many years ago. What’s a penny worth, anyway? Walmart is currently offering four-packs of Tic Tacs candy for $2.88; at 36 Tic Tacs per box that works out to a price of 2c per Tic Tac. Ideally, our tax dollars should be used to solve problems, but finding a cheaper way to manufacture a coin that’s worth half a Tic Tac isn’t solving any problem. It’s kowtowing to a fond delusion that has long since outlived its usefulness. We don’t _need_ a denomination that is worth so little. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/48 "2014-04-28T05:29:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What I don’t get is why no one just floats the idea of making them out of something cheaper. Notwithstanding my earlier post, I believe I did read that they are looking into this. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/49 "2014-04-28T05:34:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t believe in the idea of government by experts. I’d rather have that than government by lobbyists and corporate interests. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/50 "2014-04-28T06:40:33Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Yes. It’s good luck. I don’t think anyone has picked them up for the financial benefits since about 1950. My wife scolds me that it is bad luck:p ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/51 "2014-04-28T07:04:23Z")
We cannot reasonably ignore the fact that postal service buildings also occupy prime real estate in many cities: financial pressure placed on the USPS will force them to sell off these golden locations to balance their short-falls. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/52 "2014-04-28T07:29:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What I don’t get is why no one just floats the idea of making them out of something cheaper. As I understand it, pennies can’t be made a whole lot cheaper, as it costs more than one cent just to take metal and turn it into a coin. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/53 "2014-04-28T07:58:48Z")
I don’t know exactly what properties coin-counting machines (Coin Star, bank counters, vending machines, toll booths, self-serve checkouts, change dispensers, fareboxes, etc) depend on, but if you change the composition of the penny, you have to keep in mind that you might break all of these machines. Unlike most paper bill counters where you can just update the optical recognition software/firmware, most coin counters depend on electro-mechanical coin sorting. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/54 "2014-04-28T15:33:21Z")
While we’re at it, what’s with the obsession over whether or not a penny costs more than a penny to make? It’s not like we use coins once and then throw them in the trash. It’s also not like anybody expects the US Mint to be a self-sustaining business venture. It’s a part of the government. So why does anybody, except a handfull of people in the Treasury derpartment, know or care how much it costs to make a penny? Basically, I’m asking if this is a fake “problem” created to have an argument in favor of eliminating the penny. Which, as I said before, I’m actually in favor of. But I’m in favor of it because the penny is a worthlessly small amount of money these days, not because of whether a penny can be made for less than a penny or not. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/55 "2014-04-28T16:48:43Z")
At this point, we could replace the penny, nickel and dime with the “bit” (a quarter has always been “two bits”) and most people would be okay with that. Except of course, for the retailers, who would no longer be able to post “$9.99” for a ten dollar item. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/56 "2014-04-28T17:01:31Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > While we’re at it, what’s with the obsession over whether or not a penny costs more than a penny to make? It’s not like we use coins once and then throw them in the trash. It’s also not like anybody expects the US Mint to be a self-sustaining business venture. Actually this has been expected of mints since the earliest days of manufactured coins; it’s called seigniorage. It’s fundamental to the business model of a mint. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/57 "2014-04-28T18:54:59Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > Yes, this IS hardly mentioned, and I did not know the specifics. I had heard no Federal employee is to double-dip (i.e., pull a double pension from the Fed Gov nor work for another Fed office while pulling a Fed pension), but the retired military can get around this by working for the USPS. I guess this is hidden by forcing thr USPS to pick up the tab. > > P.S. What did you mean “before the USPS was formed”? I vaguely recall some reorganization back in the 1970s mayeb when zip codes started. Is that what you mean? Otherwise, the USPS goes waaaay back, Mr. Peabody! 😉 The USPS is an independent federal agency that is the modern successor to the former executive branch, cabinet level Department of the Post Office. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/58 "2014-04-28T18:58:54Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > We cannot reasonably ignore the fact that postal service buildings also occupy prime real estate in many cities: financial pressure placed on the USPS will force them to sell off these golden locations to balance their short-falls. Except in many cases, the Post Office is a significant factor into making the neighborhood desirable. Actually, the Post Office is considering offering basic financial services, with modest fees, as a means to help bolster its bottom line. It has locations in every major metropolis and tiny hamlet, and has the trust of many lower income individuals who need services such as check cashing or wire transfers. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/59 "2014-04-28T19:19:16Z")
I was under the impression that retailers did not carry dollar coins because the armored trucks that transport money to and from businesses would have to manufacture a whole bunch more trays to properly carry the heightened use of dollar coins. Coin counter machines would also need to be updated to include the new size and material. If the register trays didn’t have a convenient spot for the dollar coins then new register trays would need to be bought. Basically, nobody wants to be the one to personally pay for the trays and machinery to hold and count all these coins in order to get them into common circulation when the dollar bill is “good enough”, traditional, and completely accepted. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517/60 "2014-04-28T19:24:37Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > Except in many cases, the Post Office is a significant factor into making the neighborhood desirable. > > Actually, the Post Office is considering offering basic financial services, with modest fees, as a means to help bolster its bottom line. It has locations in every major metropolis and tiny hamlet, and has the trust of many lower income individuals who need services such as check cashing or wire transfers. Yes, but, you know, private business could do such a better job! Think of all the person who could make a healthy profit from handling those services. The USPS is stealing money from the hand of private citizen by having a government run monopoly! They must be destroyed so that entrepreneur can replace them! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-help-itself/686517.md?page=4)