# Why can't the US win any wars anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205 "2021-08-07T17:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/144 "2021-08-19T20:03:03Z")
Afghanistan was the very definition of a strategic backwater for most of the US sojourn there. The US leaves when it has actually regained some significant importance with the return of Great Power competition, it sits next to Chinas restive West and Russia’s Central Asian military bases. IMO, the US military never actually believed they would fully withdraw and neither did the NATO countries. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/145 "2021-08-19T20:14:10Z")
I think that’s probably true since so many American Presidents had lied about wanting to withdraw. Interesting you reference its potential strategic importance–I actually think one could have made the case for staying in Afghanistan for strategic reasons. But it’s just hard when you spend 20 years telling people you’re going to leave and saying all kinds of nonsensical things about why you’re there in the first place. I think it’s a hard sell to the American people regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Somethingwitty1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/somethingwitty1/32/8899_2.png) [@Somethingwitty1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somethingwitty1)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/146 "2021-08-19T20:14:14Z")
No. To clarify, I see the attraction of just going over there and just kicking ass as punishment for hosting al-Qaeda, declare victory and go home. And tell them not do it again. But thought we were better than that in the sense that the common Afghani people had nothing to do with it. And since we were over there kicking the Taliban out of power, we might as well try to set up a stable government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/147 "2021-08-19T20:58:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think that’s probably true since so many American Presidents had lied about wanting to withdraw. I think it’s the same situation we saw in Vietnam. Every President knew we weren’t winning the war. But none of them wanted to be the one who admitted defeat and ended the war. So they all kept the war going and passed it on the next guy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/148 "2021-08-19T21:04:28Z")
> [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > No. To clarify, I see the attraction of just going over there and just kicking ass as punishment for hosting al-Qaeda, declare victory and go home. And tell them not do it again. > > But thought we were better than that in the sense that the common Afghani people had nothing to do with it. And since we were over there kicking the Taliban out of power, we might as well try to set up a stable government. Okay, I agree that our original goal of stopping the Taliban from offering sanctuary to Al Qaeda was a legitimate and clear goal and we accomplished that. As I noted in another thread, I think even the Taliban has learned from that and will probably not allow Afghanistan to be used as a base for terrorist attacks against the United States in the future. On the other goal of setting up a stable government in Afghanistan, I feel we put twenty years of effort into that. At what point are we allowed to say we gave it our best shot? And maybe say that we didn’t betray Afghanistan as much as they betrayed themselves? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/149 "2021-08-19T21:24:04Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > They don’t like the spending, the (obvious and publicized) immoral actions needed to secure the loyalty of the not-so-bad guys, they don’t like the “enhanced interrogations” and Gitmo, and so forth the second part of that statement came up when it discovered that the forces on our side (and theirs) had a unique to the western world idea of “rape and pillage” in the fact that they’d carry off the younger males and according to news sources when one of our officers realized that had happened (he found the boy chained to a bed) he marched out and punched the offending officer … the pundits made much hay out of it but all that really happened was the view of "things are different here " and apparently it’s just a feature of Muslim wars and not surprising as the powers in charge knew it happened and had looked the other way since we’ve gotten involved in the region ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/150 "2021-08-20T02:56:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Interesting you reference its potential strategic importance–I actually think one could have made the case for staying in Afghanistan for strategic reasons. But it’s just hard when you spend 20 years telling people you’re going to leave and saying all kinds of nonsensical things about why you’re there in the first place. Just keeping Bagram and Bastion would have been enough. And much more importantly the massive Intelligence network based in country, which has now been lost. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/151 "2021-08-20T03:15:49Z")
I don’t think American presidents were lying – I think they wanted out of Afghanistan. Like most leaders, they didn’t know how to leave, without losing face. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/152 "2021-08-20T03:48:18Z")
I think the typical doctrine is we don’t like to keep large military bases in countries that don’t want us there, they tend to accumulate “problems.” We want willing host nations. So to keep those large bases indefinitely in Afghanistan you would need a friendly government, but if a friendly government cannot survive on its own, you have to prop one up. Suddenly you don’t need 2 bases you need 50. It’s a bit of a tar baby situation in that regard. Now, we did keep military bases in Syria that we kinda took over or setup for a few years while fighting ISIS, and Assad certainly didn’t want us there, neither did ISIS or Russia. But that was a much more limited mission, and so many factions there were busy fighting each other that they didn’t spend much effort poking the bear so speak. But for a long term commitment it’s pretty difficult to keep a large military base in a country that doesn’t want you there, without it leading to more problems. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2021, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/153 "2021-08-20T04:19:46Z")
True, but the bigger issue is that Syria has access to the sea. Afghanistan is landlocked, and requires the consent of its neighbours for the US to operate. The Taliban aren’t a monolithic organisation anymore than the Mujahideen were. So it would have been possible to operate at least a small group by buying off the appropriate leaders and underlyings. _Look, dude, you can either dodge JDAMS all your life or take our money and go enjoy the nightlife in Dubai, Karachi, Doha_ ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/154 "2021-08-23T05:29:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think they likely made a lot of assumptions that turned out to be wrong, chief among them that they’d have more warning and time to spin stuff up before the real chaos broke out. Like the Afghan army would fight the Taliban enough to slow them down and give them time to arrange stuff on the ground. I get the impression that NOBODY expected that level of spectacular failure on their part, and that’s a big part of the problem. > [@asahi](#): > > In Biden’s defense, one factor that needs to be considered is the damage that Trump inflicted both in terms of gutting the career civil service (especially in the State Dept) and the post-election transition. I think the latter is particularly problematic, and unfortunately, the media will probably overlook it. I’m not backing away from my criticism of Biden’s team in coordinating the pullout - a clusterfuck is a clusterfuck. But these are factors that warrant some thought, in addition to others. Biden has openly admitted that he was warned; but in his hubris and arrogance, he ignored the warnings. So far he has not apologized; all he’s done is try to defend the indefensible. > ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/155 "2021-08-23T07:55:40Z")
He made the right decision. Being done with this stupid, pointless, counterproductive war is the right decision. Thank God he made this decision - one of the best and bravest decisions any president has made in years. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/156 "2021-08-23T13:05:04Z")
This is one of those things that had it happen on the other guy’s watch that it wouldn’t have been an issue at all. Had the exact thing happened under Trump, CNN would have been up in arms. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/157 "2021-08-23T19:11:03Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Had the exact thing happened under Trump, CNN would have been up in arms. Umm, CNN is up in arms. They’re not treating Biden with kid gloves. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/158 "2021-08-23T19:15:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He made the right decision. Being done with this stupid, pointless, counterproductive war is the right decision. Thank God he made this decision - one of the best and bravest decisions any president has made in years. This is a straw man argument. Withdrawing from Afghanistan is right - precious few people are arguing that the war and occupation should continue. Withdrawing in chaotic, helter-skelter fashion is not. If you have a big piece of metal shrapnel in your body, it needs to come out. But if a surgeon yanked it out of your flesh in a damaging way instead of removing it carefully and slowly, you’d have every right to complain. (The surgeon’s supporters would say, of course, that “there was no other way.”) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/159 "2021-08-23T19:22:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The surgeon’s supporters would say, of course, that “there was no other way.”) I voted for Biden, and will vote for him again in 2024 if he is running. The more I read about how things are going down, the worse it looks. There certainly was a better way of doing things. Biden definitely seems to have screwed this up. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/160 "2021-08-23T19:25:11Z")
Indeed. I think some Democrats are operating off of a reflexive defensive instinct, when they don’t grasp that, no matter what, **Biden is light years better than Trump.** They seem to be worried that conceding any point means a win for Trump and his ilk and can’t budge an inch. Even if Biden were to screw up Afghanistan 10x worse than he is right now, he’d still be a light-years better president than Trump. It smacks of Democratic insecurity the way some (not you, of course, since you’re a realist) Biden supporters feel the need to refuse to concede anything. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/161 "2021-08-23T19:28:38Z")
The poster I was responding to criticized the decision to withdraw. And I think your characterization of the withdrawal is baseless, and pretty much just echoes the brainless foreign policy “blob” of DC conventional wisdom that nearly always pushes for war, and nearly always criticizes pulling back from war. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/162 "2021-08-23T19:30:13Z")
I mean Biden has conceded that some aspects of the withdrawal are messy, I’m not sure to what degree he should say more. Like at what point does a President saying “there are some things that missed the mark” become redundant? I’d basically say after the first time he said it. The way politics works there’s little incentive to admit any problems at all, and way less incentive to keep repeating an acknowledgement. Like there’s no point of contrition that will make people quit screaming, if anything it just becomes further political ammunition. A huge part of why the withdrawal was fumbled is the Afghan government rapidly collapsed in about 11 days time. That’s frankly an intelligence failure that while Biden has to take the ultimate hit for, isn’t something he could have easily avoided. Drawing down Bagram early would be maybe one of the few obviously poor decisions that should have been recognized as poor in advance. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205/163 "2021-08-23T20:00:33Z")
I’m not so sure this really was a chaotic, helter-skelter fashion kind of thing. The US Military had drawn down from something like 8600 troops in June 2020, to 2500 by January 2021, and as low as 650 by August. In May, with Biden’s announcement that the US would be pulling out completely, the Taliban launched their offensive. The long-term plan, prior to the Fall of Kabul, was that there would be embassy staff, and some small number of advisors for the ANDSF, but when Kabul fell, the whole thing became “Let’s evacuate all the Americans and our associated Afghans.”, and that’s the part when it got crazy. And we redeployed something like three or four thousand troops to cover that withdrawal in fact. It wasn’t the overall withdrawal that was the problem, it was the fact that the city was invaded by a hostile force causing the collapse of whatever civil order there was, and trying to evacuate a bunch of your own people during that, as well as a bunch of friendly locals is extremely tough and likely unplannable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-the-us-win-any-wars-anymore/948205.md?page=9)