# Why can't they just take the passengers off the Carnival Triumph? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 14, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257 "2013-02-14T04:33:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/21 "2013-02-16T16:55:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think it would an insurmountable engineering task to design a ship to ship transit system. Nobody’s going to build it because there’s no practical need for it. It’s rare to have a complete engine failure on a ship of that size and the most sensible thing to do is just tow it to shore\*\*. What surprises me is the lack of backup generator(s) that would have made the wait more tolerable. They really must have bollixed up the electrical system on this one. \*\* Agreed. They only have one main distrution center and that is in the engine room. The auxilary generators feed the main buss. And they have those because they shut down the main engines when in port. There should have been some way of isolating the hotel load, pulling it off the main buss and feeding it differently. Either through switching or with wrenches. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/22 "2013-02-16T19:41:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > There are already cost-effective methods in place. The issue with those is the risk involved. You want to completely minimize the risk of transiting from one ship at sea to another? Then you’ll have to basically build the two ships into one ship and while you’re doing that, you’ll have to take into account the stresses involved in the structure. That’s going to be quite an expensive proposition, especially if you’re planning on putting that thing together while it’s at sea. > > I hate to ask this, but I’m really feeling compelled to now. Are you guys aware that we’ve been talking about a ship on the ocean, not some building going up in the empty lot next-door? Yes, I understand what’s involved and yes it would be an expensive proposition to make something that could be used in a rare mass transfer. My point was that nobody would build such a system because of the cost and lack of need. What would more sense would be an upgrade in the systems currently used to launch rescue boats off of a ship. If, as mentioned above, it’s a deadly venture to even practice their use then that would be a good thing to throw some engineering dollars into. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/23 "2013-02-16T20:05:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t think it would an insurmountable engineering task to design a ship to ship transit system. Nobody’s going to build it because there’s no practical need for it. It’s rare to have a complete engine failure on a ship of that size and the most sensible thing to do is just tow it to shore. What surprises me is the lack of backup generator(s) that would have made the wait more tolerable. They really must have bollixed up the electrical system on this one. I came here kinda thinking the same thing. Okay, you can’t easily transfer 4k people off a cruise ship in the GoM. It ain’t Antarctica though. I don’t get why they didn’t have backups of backups and how hard would it be to get generators to the ship, fresh water, port-o-potties, etc. I’m sure FEMA could have helped them out at great cost. Were they too cheap? ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/24 "2013-02-16T20:19:46Z")
Cruise ship = floating apartment building complex ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/25 "2013-02-16T20:23:32Z")
I would think, and this is based on nothing by my imagination, that a ship of that size would have 2 independent engines/propellers plus a 3rd diesel-electric set up for limp mode. I’d expect the entire electrical system to be set up in a staggered bus system so power is independently spread out through the ship allowing for a variety of mechanical or electro-mechanical crossovers in the event of a catastrophic event. and just like any major institution there would be multiple backup generators located away from each other so as not to be easily compromised as a group. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/26 "2013-02-16T22:38:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would think, and this is based on nothing by my imagination, that a ship of that size would have 2 independent engines/propellers plus a 3rd diesel-electric set up for limp mode. I’d expect the entire electrical system to be set up in a staggered bus system so power is independently spread out through the ship allowing for a variety of mechanical or electro-mechanical crossovers in the event of a catastrophic event. and just like any major institution there would be multiple backup generators located away from each other so as not to be easily compromised as a group. This is not a warship. A lot of them have two engines. They also have two motors. Limp mode with a third main engine would cost money and room. There are emergency generators in different locations connected to emergency circuits. But the emergency distribution is only to life safety. + Also remember these are foreign flag vesssels. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/27 "2013-02-16T22:45:22Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > This is not a warship. A lot of them have two engines. They also have two motors. Limp mode with a third main engine would cost money and room. There are emergency generators in different locations connected to emergency circuits. But the emergency distribution is only to life safety. + > Also remember these are foreign flag vesssels. Are they all diesel electrics now or is the propeller shaft connected to the engines? If they’re diesel electrics with remote generators then I would expect an almost foolproof level of redundancy. It should be interesting to learn what happened exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/28 "2013-02-17T00:03:14Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Also remember these are foreign flag vesssels. Not all foreign-flagged ships are death traps. Anyway, does it really matter? Don’t foreign vessels operating in US waters have to meet US safety standards? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/29 "2013-02-17T00:29:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Not all foreign-flagged ships are death traps. Anyway, does it really matter? Don’t foreign vessels operating in US waters have to meet US safety standards? Not fully inspected. But inorder to leave port with US citizens as passengers they myst pass a mimumum inspection. Not the same safety that a US flag ship does. Basically they have to meet international standards. And have a low probabily of sinking or poluting US waters. And you are right there are other nations that have strict regulations. But the “run away flags” do not. After I had passed my US Thirds I was told that I could qualify for a Greek Chief’s. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/30 "2013-02-17T00:35:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are they all diesel electrics now or is the propeller shaft connected to the engines? If they’re diesel electrics with remote generators then I would expect an almost foolproof level of redundancy. It should be interesting to learn what happened exactly. They are not all Diesel, some are Gas Turbine with waste heat steam. The motors are Azsopod (sp) motors. The motors are hung under the ship and can turm 360 degrees, the ships also do not have rudders. And I agree everything should not run directly off the main buss. I would really know what happen also. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/31 "2013-02-17T01:55:30Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > They are not all Diesel, some are Gas Turbine with waste heat steam. The motors are Azsopod (sp) motors. The motors are hung under the ship and can turm 360 degrees, the ships also do not have rudders. And I agree everything should not run directly off the main buss. I would really know what happen also. I’d heard about vectored thrust. First time I heard they had motors under the ship. It must have been a whopping electrical melt down to shut lose all power. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/32 "2013-02-17T02:38:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d heard about vectored thrust. First time I heard they had motors under the ship. It must have been a whopping electrical melt down to shut lose all power. Does not take a whopping fire to take down an electrical distribution system. just enough fire to melt some parts creating a short. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/33 "2013-02-17T05:24:37Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Not fully inspected. But inorder to leave port with US citizens as passengers they myst pass a mimumum inspection. Not the same safety that a US flag ship does. Basically they have to meet international standards. And have a low probabily of sinking or poluting US waters. > > And you are right there are other nations that have strict regulations. But the “run away flags” do not. After I had passed my US Thirds I was told that I could qualify for a Greek Chief’s. So, where does the Bahamas rate as far as ship safety requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/34 "2013-02-17T05:44:08Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Does not take a whopping fire to take down an electrical distribution system. just enough fire to melt some parts creating a short. well it’s got to be big enough you can’t fix it. It’s not like they sailed without a repair crew. ---
**Author:** ![llyn.glas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7feea3/32.png) [@llyn.glas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llyn.glas)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/35 "2013-02-17T05:50:07Z")
I assume that if the ship had no power, no stabilizers and a list, that if this had happened during bad weather that this could have turned into a tragedy… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/36 "2013-02-17T06:11:29Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Does not take a whopping fire to take down an electrical distribution system. just enough fire to melt some parts creating a short. Obviously; that’s what happened. But why put 4,000 lives at risk with that kind of design? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/37 "2013-02-17T06:39:07Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Obviously; that’s what happened. But why put 4,000 lives at risk with that kind of design? well one would think. It’s not hard to set up one’s home electrical system so you have critical stuff on a switchable buss that can be used with a generator. It’s the same mindset applied to a city of 4000 people. You’d have to have redundant panels interconnected with each other. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/38 "2013-02-18T04:08:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Obviously; that’s what happened. But why put 4,000 lives at risk with that kind of design? Because the risk is very miniscule. If you’re on the design team, you might note that the chances of it happening are small, the chances of it actually causing an actual death toll are even smaller, and even if something does happen, while the company may suffer for it, you personally would not, both because of the way being part of a “team” tends to deflect any specific blame, and also because by the time something happens, years have probably passed and you’re not in that position or possibly even in that company anymore. On the other hand, if you do design in more redundancy, you raise the cost and explicitly drop the profitability (since you’ll probably have to take out some staterooms to fit in the redundant systems), and that will be seen immediately and may reflect in your bonus, or next performance review or whatever. And lest that sound too cynical, I should point out that cost vs risk takes place in almost everything. Your car would be safer with full roll cages, it would save lives, but they would cost more both up front and to operate, so it doesn’t happen. And really, given that there had apparently been problems going on during previous cruises,a lack of redundant systems may not be the real place to focus. I don’t care how redundant my systems are if people are half-assing the maintenance work. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/39 "2013-02-18T06:56:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > well it’s got to be big enough you can’t fix it. It’s not like they sailed without a repair crew. A fire in a engine room that involves an electrical buss can cause a short between the phase bars. The damage can easily be enough the the repair is replace the buss bars or even the whole distrobution panel. That is not a simple job. Or a job the ship has the parts to complete. And it would take a few days. If the ship had a few hundred feet of 4-0 or 2-0 wire a lash up could be done to route around the main panel. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257/40 "2013-02-18T06:57:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Obviously; that’s what happened. But why put 4,000 lives at risk with that kind of design? Agreeded [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-just-take-the-passengers-off-the-carnival-triumph/650257.md?page=3)