# Why Can't They Reproduce the Quality of Stradivarius Violins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363 "2002-06-22T00:33:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Torgo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@Torgo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torgo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/1 "2002-06-22T00:33:02Z")
With all the advancements in technology nowadays why are violinists reduced to playing 300 year-old instruments? I understand the Strad is held in very high esteem but can’t somebody out there figure out WHY and HOW it’s made so well and reproduce it on a mass scale? ---
**Author:** ![Anomalocaris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b77776/32.png) [@Anomalocaris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalocaris)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/2 "2002-06-22T00:47:08Z")
I read an article not so long ago (in Discover magazine, I believe) that used oscilloscopes and other happy instruments to analyze the sound of the Strad and compare it to other, high-quality though contemporary violins. Some newer models did have sound quality that matched the Stradivarious, so at least some of the esteem granted to them is in the mind of the beholder (though no-one can argue that they are of the highest quality.) Some lutheirs attribute the rich sound of the Strad to a certain fingus that grew in the violin’s wood, after it was soaked and varnished in just the right manner. They have been trying for centuries to duplicate the process. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/3 "2002-06-22T01:25:46Z")
Here is the Discover article. It’s pretty interesting even to a non-violinist like me. [http://www.discover.com/jul\_00/featviolin.html](http://www.discover.com/jul_00/featviolin.html) Now - I asked this question to a friend I was chatting with (she plays) and this is her (not very GQ) answer! > [@](#): > > Yankee Fiddler says: > There’s some dude who’s trying to reproduce Strads. There’s some biochemist who’s collecting piss from all of his colleagues to age the wood, because that’s apparently part of how they did it. > Celyn says: > ah > Yankee Fiddler says: > Alan says that the Guardian ran an article on it last summer, So it is just possible that searching for biochemists _might_ help, but I offer no opinion on that! ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/4 "2002-06-22T01:27:57Z")
I’d venture a guess that the time, craftmanship and effort involved in creating a Strad from scratch would be prohibitively costly. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/5 "2002-06-22T02:04:35Z")
Most comprehensive article on this subject below - [Secrets of the Stradivarius: An Interview with Joseph Nagyvary - Scientific American](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BD557-2293-1CFD-93F6809EC5880000) See also [Stradivarius violins are among the most sought-after musical instruments in the world. But is there a secret that makes a Stradivarius sound so good, and can modern violins match the wonderful tonal quality of this great Italian instrument?](http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/4/8) ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/6 "2002-06-22T05:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*I’d venture a guess that the time, craftmanship and effort involved in creating a Strad from scratch would be prohibitively costly. \*\* These are expensive- but many fine violins are made exactly this way. That is why good ones are expensive- another example of how you only get out what you are willing to put in. The violins that are not made with that time, craftsmanship, and effort generally look and sound as if they were made by someone chained to a bench in southeast Asia (often, they are). Torgo, many stages of production require care and judgement that is often VERY subjective. Technology for violin making is still more or less the same as it was 300 years ago, with some improvements in adhesives and tools, but from what I can see, the best way to do it for an individual instrument is still the old way. Of course, you can by some major parts already machine shaped (soundboard, back, neck etc), but they still require fine tuning & fitting, as each piece of wood is unique. Fortunately, some very good performance measuring and analysis tools have evolved recently, so we can move toward knowing more of what factors make better instruments. hijack: I hope you will look further into this, as it is a fascinating world to visit, and if you wish to make one, by all means, do the research, and make one. There are many good books available, and the tools required are surprisingly simple. You can even buy kits to introduce you to the craft, and if you are careful, patient, thoughtful, attentive, and imaginative, you can make a pretty good one from a kit. (It’s not a Strad, but it’s yours, and this can satisfy you and teach you about yourself like nothing else can.) ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/7 "2002-06-22T10:31:23Z")
> [@](#): > > so at least some of the esteem granted to them is in the mind of the beholder It would be interesting to do a double-blind test, where a professional violinist is blindfolded and given different violins to play, and a music critic standing behind a screen has to guess which is the Stradovarius. My guess is that the critic would be unable to tell the difference. I remember reading a physics article claiming that the material a flute is made of - gold, silver, platinum, or concrete (!) is irrelevant to the sound. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/8 "2002-06-22T11:15:12Z")
- - - Making a violin isn’t expensive at all; it’s just a few small blocks and flat pieces of wood and nobody has ever alleged that “great” violins were made from wood any different from lesser quality instruments. -I also agree that much of the difference is imaginary; I’ve never heard one but I have read more than one place that “a violin has to be played for many decades before it begins to sound good, and instruments that are not regularly played deteriorate in sound quality”-------excuse me, my BS alarm just went off. Especially since Strads were recognized as outstanding from the start. My assumption is that the creators happened to hit on a particularly agreeable-sounding design at the time, but it could probably be improved upon now, what with computer analysis and design and what. The mystique is what can’t be created. $5000 speaker cables, anyone? - Intrestingly, stringed orchestral instruments are by far the most expensive; a “good” violin will cost $300,000+, while most other orchestral instruments get regularly replaced every few years with newer models, and they rarely _ever_ crack the $10,000 barrier, and that’s usually only in the instance of an instrument having a famous previous owner. - DougC ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/9 "2002-06-22T12:15:27Z")
For the most expensive objects, craftsmanship is usually the overwhelming cost. Violins, guitars, etc., are made from more expensive wood, the more expensive the instrument. They’re looking for uniform grain, no flaws, excellent curing, and so on. The first thing that springs to mind about instruments that aren’t played regularly is not paranormal activity, but that an unplayed instrument is liable to be abused. Knowing something about pianos, a piano that’s never tuned, kept in rooms with no temperature or humidity control at all (or heat that goes from 45 degrees to 110, such as in my aunt’s house) will slide into deterioration after a couple decades, at most. $5000 speaker cables, hmm. You didn’t used to work at NASA Ames 10 years ago? We had a protracted and hot argument about this very thing. I have cables on my stereo that cost about $1000, all told. I bought them because the local store gave me the option of upgrading my other equipment, at greater expense, or changing the cables. Eventually I came to understand I could upgrade my stereo almost indefinitely, and still get improvement. At the point the improvements got to be more than buying a great guitar, I shifted gears. Some of my friends whined, “But that’s not fair, we can’t just go out and learn guitar.” Too bad, guys. As for the $10,000 barrier, wouldn’t part of that be that darn few musicians can afford to spend $100,000 on _anything_? ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/10 "2002-06-22T13:21:50Z")
FYI - when it comes to costs (I fear this may be shifting the thread a bit), I knew a violinist a number of years ago who bought a BOW for his violin for $23,000. He wasn’t a soloist, although he did play in a world class opera orchestra at the time, so that’s a lot of dough for an instrument that would seldom be heard alone. And that was over 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/11 "2002-06-22T13:51:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\* > $5000 speaker cables, hmm. You didn’t used to work at NASA Ames 10 years ago? We had a protracted and hot argument about this very thing. I have cables on my stereo that cost about $1000, all told. I bought them because the local store gave me the option of upgrading my other equipment, at greater expense, or changing the cables. Eventually I came to understand I could upgrade my stereo almost indefinitely, and still get improvement. \*\* There was a thread about this topic a few months back, as well as cites to an article on Randi’s web site. I believe that the consenus was that these expensive stereo improvements were largely useless. **DougC** , I basically agree with you - when I read this thread I was reminded of $5000 speaker cables too. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/12 "2002-06-22T16:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > …As for the $10,000 barrier, wouldn’t part of that be that darn few musicians can afford to spend $100,000 on _anything_?.. - - - Actually, no. Some time ago there was a lengthy newspaper article in the St Louis paper, concerning the local orchestra’s financial dire straights. One subject mentioned was that one of the first programs being cut back for orchestral musicians was the financial assistance towards instrument purchases. Professional performers must supply their own instruments, and while most other (top-quality) instruments can be had for less than $10,000, a _low-end_ violin of such quality will indeed cost $150,000+. A good one can easily sell for over $500,000. The program does not help pay for the instrument directly, but it does help the performer secure credit somehow (if I recall right, it paid part of the loan interest). The performer ends up paying for that instrument themselves. - The argument against the program was that all the performers didn’t need or use it equally, because some instruments cost hundreds of times what others did. The argument for the program was that without it, the orchestra would be unlikely to be able to keep _any_ top-notch string performers, because the credit-assistance program is one of the major considerations a professional string performer makes when deciding to apply to an orchestra. - DougC ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/13 "2002-06-22T20:45:49Z")
Another thing that hasn’t been much discussed here is the quality of the player. I am not a great player, and no matter how fine the violin, it will not sound appreciably better than my old Stainer copy when I play it. For me to have a fine violin would be equivalent to putting the $5000 cables on my $50 stereo; no improvement. However, a world class performer can make my ordinary instrument sound much better than I can. I simply do not have the technique required to make the better instrument sound better. Some players DO. Of course there is a romantic, mystical element involved, as there is also a demand far exceeding supply. But when these things are accounted for, the (subtle but real) differences still exist. As to an instrument improving from being played, if you will simply imagine the effect of flexing a piece of any material millions of times, you will see how this CAN have an effect. The wood moves. Partly\_warmer, you are also correct that an unplayed instrument is usually a neglected or improperly stored instrument. DougC, a fine violin is made of inexpensive wood in the same way as human beings are made of a sack of chemicals. The way the elements are arranged are at least as critical as their material content. I would think (and maybe one day I’ll make the experiment, when I have more experience) that you could make a pretty good violin with cherry or walnut back, sides, & ribs, or maybe something more exotic, rather than maple. These woods are just not traditional. Lucwarm, it would be interesting to see the test made, but you should bear in mind that one’s inability to hear a difference does not mean that no one else can hear it. I play flutes as well, and as a hobby occasionally make them. I assure you, a flute made of metal and a flute made of wood to otherwise the same design WILL sound different. (They will, however, play to about the same pitch. Perhaps that is closer to what you read?) At the very least, the timbre of the sound will be different because of differences in reflectivity (damn, that’s not the word I wanted) of differing materials. I once tried gluing a brass face onto a wooden endplug of a wooden flute. I was surprised at the difference. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/14 "2002-06-22T22:17:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hammerbach \* > \*\* > > Lucwarm, it would be interesting to see the test made, but you should bear in mind that one’s inability to hear a difference does not mean that no one else can hear it. > > \*\* Well, anyone who claims to be able to tell the difference could be tested, in theory. I imagine that in practice, most top critics would refuse to be tested. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I play flutes as well, and as a hobby occasionally make them. I assure you, a flute made of metal and a flute made of wood to otherwise the same design WILL sound different. \*\* I’m not sure that wood would be a good comparison, since it cannot be cast or formed or smoothed in the same way as metals. The article I read said that gold, silver, platinum (and concrete!!) produced indistinguishable sounds. It said that any improvement in sound quality was due to the fact that flute manufacturers work more carefully with more expensive metals. But maybe you can explain to me why a silver flute would sound different from an identical gold flute? Can you tell me the scientific word for “reflectivity” so I can run a few google searches? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/15 "2002-06-22T22:25:36Z")
Ok, I found the following: > [@](#): > > \*\*At a recent conference on music and human adaptation at Virginia Tech, physicist John W. Coltman demonstrated what he first described in the early 1970s. After asking the attendees to divert their eyes, he played the same tune twice on the flute. He then asked whether anyone heard any difference between the two performances. No one spoke up; the two were virtually indistinguishable. > > Then Coltman revealed his trick. The first time he performed the tune, he played it on a simple side-blown flute made of lightweight cherry wood. The second time he used a flute of identical design, except for one detail: it was made of concrete. > > To anyone schooled in the physics of wind instruments, Coltman’s point is old news. Whether the air is set to vibrate by an edge tone as on the flute, by a reed as with the clarinet or by buzzing lips as with the French horn, the sound itself comes from the vibrating air column inside the instrument. This sound is produced through the end or through open tone holes, not by vibrations of the instrument’s body, as is true of string instruments. Dozens of published reports, some dating back 100 years, converge toward the same general conclusion: so long as the walls are thick enough to remain rigid–about 0.4 millimeter (0.016 inch) for metals, two millimeters ) for woods–and the inside walls are smooth, the kind of material used for a wind instrument is, for the most part, immaterial. I don’t want to quote too much more, but the article said that the difference in sound between wooden and metal instruments had to do with the method of manufacture: > [@](#): > > For example, holes in wood flutes are simply drilled in, whereas metal flutes have holes enclosed in a short length of pipe. Apparently this article appeared in Scientific American. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2002, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/16 "2002-06-23T01:18:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, anyone who claims to be able to tell the difference could be tested, in theory. I imagine that in practice, most top critics would refuse to be tested… - - - Exactly: Person A: “_I_ can tell the difference between cheap and expensive speaker cables.” Person B: “Well then, lets get a stereo and one pair of each cables…” Person A: “Well, I know _my_ stereo, and on _it_, I’d be able to tell the difference.” Person B: “Well okay, lets get some cheap cables, and…” Person A: “You’re not touching _my_ stereo!” - DougC ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2002, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/17 "2002-06-23T05:45:52Z")
quote: “For example, holes in wood flutes are simply drilled in, whereas metal flutes have holes enclosed in a short length of pipe.” On the contrary, Lucwarm, I have made mine by boring holes through the material, whether wood, plastic or copper. They DO sound different. If you cannot believe me, I suggest you take the experiment firmly in hand and make some yourself, or at least find some to play. I solder pieces on the side of metal tubes to get the same wall thicknesses as the wooden pieces; all dimensions are the same. (By the way, the plastic ones sound VERY similar to the wooden ones, but different from the metal ones). It is certainly true that there is a great difference between simple-system flutes made in wood with a conical bore and Boehm system flutes with a cylindrical bore… that said, I have done the experiment. Have you? As this thread started with violins, I will start a new thread for flutes… ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2002, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/18 "2002-06-23T06:09:27Z")
Yes, hammerbach, I’ve been pretty suspecious of these “we did a test, and no one could tell the difference” reports, as well. LOTS of questions remain unanswered, but the major one, in my opinion: How do the evaluators know what to listen for? Look. When someone knowledgable is shopping for a flute, they are listening very specifically for the differences that denote the difference between an acceptable instrument, and a very acceptable one. Big surprise, no concrete flutes enter into the running. So they aren’t listing for the flaws that concrete causes. I mean seriously, an intelligent person spends a major part of their life playing flute, and is duped into believing that a plastic one is exactly the same as a perfect wood one? No way. I just can’t belive that. What I can believe is some bunch of knee-jerk Japanese marketing types assemblying a group of classical musicians in an environment that perfectly magnifies the quality of their latest product, let’s say for the sake of argument, CDs. Any untrained listener would say “YES, I can hear things I never heard before.” Thanks, Nippon. I’ve never enjoyed a CD as much as one of my analog records. Thanks for ruining my musical experience. Of course, I realize CDs are paradise to people who spend $100 on a player. It’s a whole new world. Yep. And also to audiophiles. Kiss you music ass goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/19 "2002-06-23T12:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hammerbach \* > \*\* > > On the contrary, Lucwarm, I have made mine by boring holes through the material, whether wood, plastic or copper. They DO sound different. If you cannot believe me, I suggest you take the experiment firmly in hand and make some yourself, or at least find some to play. I solder pieces on the side of metal tubes to get the same wall thicknesses as the wooden pieces; all dimensions are the same. (By the way, the plastic ones sound VERY similar to the wooden ones, but different from the metal ones). It is certainly true that there is a great difference between simple-system flutes made in wood with a conical bore and Boehm system flutes with a cylindrical bore… that said, I have done the experiment. Have you? > \*\* No I haven’t and probably never will. In any event, I’m not good enough with machinery to make identical wood and metal flutes. That said, I find _Scientific American_ to be a fairly pursuasive authority. But let’s keep things very simple: Can you explain to me, scientifically, why a gold flute should sound different than a silver flute? What do you mean by “reflectivity” and why should that matter? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363/20 "2002-06-23T12:20:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > **Yes, hammerbach, I’ve been pretty suspecious of these “we did a test, and no one could tell the difference” reports, as well.** I agree that an anecdotal report may be inaccurate. But I’m also skeptical of people who claim to be able to tell the difference. The way to settle it would be to conduct a double-blind test of people who claim to be able to tell the difference. I imagine that many such people would refuse to be tested. \*\* > [@](#): > > Of course, I realize CDs are paradise to people who spend $100 on a player. It’s a whole new world. Yep. And also to audiophiles. Kiss you music ass goodbye. \*\* Can we agree that many things, such as $1000 speaker cables, don’t appreciably change sound quality? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-they-reproduce-the-quality-of-stradivarius-violins/115363.md?page=2)