# Why can't we all just get along? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217 "2011-09-22T17:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/41 "2011-09-25T05:32:09Z")
Perhaps, given the danger mankind poses to everything else, and the fact that nature is usually in harmony when man leaves it alone, then it can only mean that man is alien, probably not of this Earth, and as such wreaks a destructive and unharmonious streak in its wake ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/42 "2011-09-25T05:58:21Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > So what you’re basically saying is: there’s absolutely nothing special about us when compared to other lifeforms on this planet. We don’t need to worry about anything bad possibly happening, nature will ‘take care’ of us like it has done with everything else. Sounds scary. Nature has killed off lots of species. Most of them, in fact. We’d be special if we don’t die off. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/43 "2011-09-25T06:03:42Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > the fact that nature is usually in harmony when man leaves it alone Nonsense. Asteroid strikes, the Deccan floods, the Missoula floods, Ice Ages, drought, evolution of new species, death of old ones, magnetic pole reversals. Nature is not in harmony. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/44 "2011-09-25T06:37:01Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > All I’m trying to say is that there is conflict bewteen us being a part and a product of nature vs. us operating outside of nature. Or; we have trouble getting along(operating outside of nature) because we’re hard-wired as part and product of nature. We don’t operate outside of nature, though. The things we do we do because it’s in our nature to do them. All of our thoughts, our choices, the way that we structure ourselves are based on natural drives and impulses, both the ones that help us and the ones that hurt us. Even our getting along with each other is part of our nature. We’re a gregarious social species that feels comfortable interacting with each other in the same way that a snail, for instance, doesn’t. And all life forms are potentially dangerous to other life forms. Those lions on the Serengeti that you see on the nature films? If they could, they’d keep on reproducing and keep on eating zebras until there aren’t any zebras left. They haven’t exterminated the zebra population, but it’s not for lack of trying. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/45 "2011-09-25T14:31:57Z")
We don’t operate outside of nature? It’s all natural drives and impulses? Really? The same mechanics that keep the lions from eating all the zebras on the serengeti are the same mechanics keeping us from emptying out the seas? Really? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/46 "2011-09-25T15:15:53Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > We are the dominant species on this planet yet we struggle to get along with each other in the first place. Sure, other species compete amongst themselves too, but they can’t do it on the same level as we do. And they’re always doing it as a part of nature. We are no longer _just_ a part of nature anymore, we are to some degree rising above it. But we are not doing a good job of being aware of this, yet we continue to evolve in this semi selfcreated environment. > This is what I mean by our style of being the dominate species. I disagree that we are not wholly a part of nature. What possible reason is there to believe that? Natural selection is still in full force. Food, sex, status and power are all still scarce. > [@](#): > > As far as attempting to weed some of those traits out, it’s more of a ‘being it’ than it is a ‘doing it’. > Guess that is one of the important reasons communism failed in practice. Because when you look at communism as it was meant to be in theory by Engels and Marx it’s not all that bad. It just requires a different view on things. But it turned out idealistic only looked good on paper to most. > I agree that some things do change for the better. Think it’s great I can talk about these things with random ppl across the globe. Don’t think we’ll accomplish anything yet but it’s the first step to a greater understanding. See, in addition to biological natural selection, which still applies faithfully, there is another, less understood and faster acting form of information evolution. This is culture, society, etc. And it has been helped immensely by science. So we can try Communism and see how and why it failed. We can study economics to see how we can do better. But there is still plenty of competition and in fact it seems, unfortunately, that progress is a result of this competition and cannot be separated entirely. I think the environment and nature are intimate parts of this evolution and there are trade offs that we all must make, individually. So yes, we should continue to attempt to better humanity through technology, science and politics. But enforcing a uniform set of morals and/or wealth is not the way to do this. If anything, we should promote freedom of thought, information and as much as possible, competition. I personally believe some sort of social safety net would actually encourage competition and freedom, and that’s where I depart from my libertarian brethren. But reasonable minds can differ and I’m 100% okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/47 "2011-09-25T15:19:40Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > We don’t operate outside of nature? It’s all natural drives and impulses? Really? > > The same mechanics that keep the lions from eating all the zebras on the serengeti are the same mechanics keeping us from emptying out the seas? Really? Yes. Define “nature”. I don’t see how you can do it without including people, unless you define it pointlessly as “non-human stuff”. We’re just big-brained monkeys, trying to get along in this world like any other animal. Nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/48 "2011-09-25T16:00:34Z")
It’s the height of arrogance to say that we operate “outside” of nature. Nature produced us, and we are every bit a part of nature as any other organism. And keep in mind that \> 99% of all species that ever lived have gone extinct. There is nothing unnatural about extinction. But the funny thing is, all life on earth will one day be gone. Everything. Unless… we travel beyond our solar system and take some life with us. We are, in fact, the only hope that earthly life has of outliving the natural destruction of our planet. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/49 "2011-09-25T16:38:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Define “special”. > > Also, define “bad”. > > Use objective terms. Again with this objective nonsense. Allow me to demonstrate by a example, or more specifically your lack of ability to find an example, that some concepts are absolutely bad even despite objectivists “your morals ain’t real and you ain’t my daddy!” type objections. Please give me a person whom you would claim is good that has a definition that has definition of “not bad” that includes the Holocaust. In other words if you can’t claim any knowledgable, good person could be okay with the Holocaust then you’re admitting there’s some things that are always bad. In grim detail, explain to me why a good person would think millions of people being gassed and tortured to death isn’t a bad thing. Yes it’s an unfair question but explain to me objectively why that’s bad. You can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/50 "2011-09-25T16:54:03Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > We don’t operate outside of nature? It’s all natural drives and impulses? Really? > > The same mechanics that keep the lions from eating all the zebras on the serengeti are the same mechanics keeping us from emptying out the seas? Really? You actually think that lions make a conscious effort to avoid depleting a food resource? So if a lion was hungry, and there was one zebra on the planet left, you think that somehow the lion would just “know” not to eat it. What “mechanics” are you refering to? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/51 "2011-09-25T17:02:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Again with this objective nonsense. > Allow me to demonstrate by a example, or more specifically your lack of ability to find an example, that some concepts are absolutely bad even despite objectivists “your morals ain’t real and you ain’t my daddy!” type objections. > Please give me a person whom you would claim is good that has a definition that has definition of “not bad” that includes the Holocaust. > > In other words if you can’t claim any knowledgable, good person could be okay with the Holocaust then you’re admitting there’s some things that are always bad. > > In grim detail, explain to me why a good person would think millions of people being gassed and tortured to death isn’t a bad thing. > Yes it’s an unfair question but explain to me objectively why that’s bad. You can’t. I don’t think you understand what the term “objective” means in this context. Of course we, as humans, want to preserve our species. But we’re biased. There is nothing objectively “good” about whether or not we, as a species, survive. And there is nothing objectively good about whether we kill all the polar bears or not. Most of us like having the polar bears around, and we think it’s bad if they die out. But that is a subjective argument, not an objective one. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/52 "2011-09-25T18:31:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Define “nature”. I don’t see how you can do it without including people, unless you define it pointlessly as “non-human stuff”. We’re just big-brained monkeys, trying to get along in this world like any other animal. Nothing more. > [@](#): > > It’s the height of arrogance to say that we operate “outside” of nature. Nature produced us, and we are every bit a part of nature as any other organism. > > And keep in mind that \> 99% of all species that ever lived have gone extinct. There is nothing unnatural about extinction. But the funny thing is, all life on earth will one day be gone. Everything. Unless… we travel beyond our solar system and take some life with us. We are, in fact, the only hope that earthly life has of outliving the natural destruction of our planet. Then we agree that we are a part and product of nature. I just don’t understand what it is you won’t qualify as operating outside of nature. There are loads of examples where we operate outside of nature. From the very small to the very big. Clothes and mostly living indoors has caused us to lose our natural fur. Invention of light has freed us from the natural day-night cycle. These are the very beginings of operating outside of nature. We became aware of our surroundings and looked at the stars like no other species has ever done before. We started to get organized and highly specialized on a scale never seen before. We were no longer just a part and product of nature, we became aware of nature and the games she plays. I mean seriously, are you claiming that taking a cab to the airport to fly across the atlantic in 5 hrs is like nature intended? If nature wanted us to fly she would have given us wings. Remember? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/53 "2011-09-25T18:39:48Z")
Nature may not have given us wings, but she gave us the knowhow to make an airplane. When a beaver builds a dam, or when a chimp jabs grass into a termite hole to get the termites out, are they acting outside of nature? We’re just a lot better at it than they are. One of the ways we’ve adapted is that we’ve grown really big brains and really manipulative digits so that we can make tools. And you’re using the pathetic fallacy. Nature doesn’t intend a damn thing. Nature doesn’t play games. Everything we do is part of nature, because everything in this world is part of nature. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/54 "2011-09-25T18:47:30Z")
> [@Shark\_Sandwich](#): > > You actually think that lions make a conscious effort to avoid depleting a food resource? So if a lion was hungry, and there was one zebra on the planet left, you think that somehow the lion would just “know” not to eat it. What “mechanics” are you refering to? I think you misunderstood me, the lions don’t have to make an effort because they play their role as part and product of nature and don’t operate outside of it. They act the part as predator in the foodchain called the habitat of the serengeti. The last sentence also refers to the mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/55 "2011-09-25T18:52:24Z")
> [@Consensus](#): > > Then we agree that we are a part and product of nature. I just don’t understand what it is you won’t qualify as operating outside of nature. There are loads of examples where we operate outside of nature. From the very small to the very big. > > Clothes and mostly living indoors has caused us to lose our natural fur. Invention of light has freed us from the natural day-night cycle. These are the very beginings of operating outside of nature. We became aware of our surroundings and looked at the stars like no other species has ever done before. > > We started to get organized and highly specialized on a scale never seen before. We were no longer just a part and product of nature, we became aware of nature and the games she plays. > > I mean seriously, are you claiming that taking a cab to the airport to fly across the atlantic in 5 hrs is like nature intended? If nature wanted us to fly she would have given us wings. Remember? Why is fur natural and lack of fur not natural? Besides, we probably lost our fur long before we started wearing clothes and “living indoors”. Nature does’t “intend” or “want” anything. You are anthropomorphizing. But if nature did want or intend something, she gave us brains with enough smarts to invent cars and airplanes. Did nature want chimps to be able to fish termites out of with specially made tools for that purpose? Not just a random stick found on the ground, but one specifically made to work well? And one which requires years of watching and practice to get right? Are chimps on a slippery slope of become outside nature? ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/56 "2011-09-25T19:18:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Nature may not have given us wings, but she gave us the knowhow to make an airplane. She did? Or was it just us and our ingenuity and desire to fly(operating outside of nature)? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When a beaver builds a dam, or when a chimp jabs grass into a termite hole to get the termites out, are they acting outside of nature? Does it look like they are acting outside of nature? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > We’re just a lot better at it than they are. One of the ways we’ve adapted is that we’ve grown really big brains and really manipulative digits so that we can make tools. > > And you’re using the pathetic fallacy. Nature doesn’t intend a damn thing. Nature doesn’t play games. Everything we do is part of nature, because everything in this world is part of nature. You listen to what your digits tell you to do? How’s that for pathetic fallacy? Of course I don’t mean games in the literal sense. I was refering to the fact that natural processes can be discribed and predicted. Cause and effect, subsystems part of larger systems interacting. From single cell bacteria to huge weather systems and everything inbetween. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/57 "2011-09-25T19:22:32Z")
Define “outside of nature”. Is a hunter/gatherer using a bow and arrow operating “outside of nature”? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/58 "2011-09-25T19:32:04Z")
Allow me an analogy: Everyone complains about slow traffic when trying to get somewhere, and yet rarely ever contemplates the fact that they are _part_ of the traffic itself. We and our _huuuge brains_ are a part of nature, and the result of blind evolution, true. To argue that the artificial work-arounds humans have been able to implement are a part of nature, is like arguing that leaving your car parked in the middle of a grid-locked highway so you can walk to your destination is a natural aspect of highway traffic (and not just you, but almost everybody else). And it very well might be, but the key here is it’s wholly _unprecedented._ We have no inkling as to what consequences this might have on the rest of our ecosphere. To hold the notion that these artificial shortcuts are simply a part of nature is fine, but to not think about the consequences without pause, caution or even just asking the questions the OP is exploring is somewhere between naive and arrogant. We are introducing and embarking on a path “nature” has never seen before. This includes us. To dwell on the consequences is substantially prudent. IOW: Nature up to now has been largely unguided and indifferent. We’re changing that by influencing nature artificially with our desires. And sometimes willy-nilly at that. ---
**Author:** ![Consensus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@Consensus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consensus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/59 "2011-09-25T19:35:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Define “outside of nature”. > > Is a hunter/gatherer using a bow and arrow operating “outside of nature”? Enough with the define. Did it once in this thread, nothing came of it. Not doing it again. Make of it whatever you like it to be, I’m obviously not doing a good job at explaining it. If there is not the slightest sense of understanding of what I mean with ‘outside of nature’ from these last few post, then there is nothing more I can say to clear it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217/60 "2011-09-25T19:36:22Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Allow me an analogy: > > Everyone complains about slow traffic when trying to get somewhere, and yet rarely ever contemplates the fact that they are _part_ of the traffic itself. > > We and our _huuuge brains_ are a part of nature, and the result of blind evolution, true. To argue that the artificial work-arounds humans have been able to implement are a part of nature, is like arguing that leaving your car parked in the middle of a grid-locked highway so you can walk to your destination is a natural aspect highway traffic (and not just you, but almost everybody else). > > And it very well might be, but the key here is it’s wholly _unprecedented._ We have no inkling as to what consequences this might have on the rest of our ecosphere. > > To hold the notion that these artificial shortcuts are simply a part of nature is fine, but to not think about the consequences without pause, caution or even just asking the questions the OP is exploring is somewhere between naive and arrogant. > > We are introducing and embarking on a path “nature” has never seen before. This includes us. To dwell on the consequences is substantially prudent. I’m not much impressed with your analogy, but the rest of your post makes a lot more sense that the OP. Allow me an analogy: The OP’s argument is akin to the argument that homosexuality is bad because it is unnatural. Yes, we have an unprecedented ability to alter the planet. It is wise to consider what that means. But we also have to recognize that global solutions require global cooperation-- something that is largely beyond our ability at this point in time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/597217.md?page=4)