# Why cant we remember the rules about apostrophe's? ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127 "2012-02-27T07:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/1 "2012-02-27T07:01:03Z")
Yes, that’s sarcasm for you. I am seeing apostrophes used in more and more “official” places, incorrectly. Why? That is, apostrophes are being inserted as to show possession when the intent is to show plural. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/2 "2012-02-27T07:13:18Z")
Because English is a living language that bends to the will of its users, because people are insufficiently educated by institutions and instructors who would enforce something like that, because even the sufficiently educated don’t face enough public censure to agonize and self-correct, because in the end too many people don’t notice and/or don’t care. Next: Why can’t we remember the rules about question marks? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/3 "2012-02-27T08:24:36Z")
What do you mean “we”? Apostrophes indicate ownership or missing letters. And not plurals. That’s all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/4 "2012-02-27T08:33:15Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Apostrophes indicate ownership or missing letters. And not plurals. That’s all you need to know. I would be most grateful if you would inform my students of this. It would reduce my workload when grading their papers. I grade my students’ work on my computer, and i actually have a keystroke shortcut that inserts the sentence, “Please familiarize yourself with the correct use of apostrophes.” That’s how often i need to use it. If these were middle school kids, i might be more understanding, but we’re talking about college juniors and seniors. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/5 "2012-02-27T08:38:44Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I would be most grateful if you would inform my students of this. It would reduce my workload when grading their papers. > > I grade my students’ work on my computer, and i actually have a keystroke shortcut that inserts the sentence, “Please familiarize yourself with the correct use of apostrophes.” That’s how often i need to use it. If these were middle school kids, i might be more understanding, but we’re talking about college juniors and seniors. I’ve met high school English teachers who put apostrophes in plurals. There’s pretty much no hope for literacy, I’m sorry to say. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/6 "2012-02-27T09:22:34Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > What do you mean “we”? Look at the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/7 "2012-02-27T09:51:11Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I’ve met high school English teachers who put apostrophes in plurals. There’s pretty much no hope for literacy, I’m sorry to say. It was more common in the 80’s. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/8 "2012-02-27T10:01:04Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > What do you mean “we”? > > Apostrophes indicate ownership or missing letters. And not plurals. That’s all you need to know. [A large proportion of writers of English disagree with you.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Use_in_forming_certain_plurals) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/9 "2012-02-27T10:19:00Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > [A large proportion of writers of English disagree with you.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Use_in_forming_certain_plurals) No they don’t. Read your cite. The first example says > [@](#): > > It is generally acceptable to use apostrophes to show plurals of single lower-case letters which means that it isn’t usually considered terribly wrong, not that it’s entirely correct. Example two says > [@](#): > > For groups of years, the apostrophe at the end is unnecessary, since there is no possibility of misreading. For this reason, some style guides prefer 1960s to 1960’s[49] (although the latter is noted by at least one source as acceptable in American usage) which means it’s wrong unless you’re American, which, praise the Lord, I ain’t. Example three says > [@](#): > > The apostrophe is sometimes used in forming the plural of numbers (for example, 1000’s of years); however, as with groups of years, it is unnecessary because there is no possibility of misreading. Most sources are against this usage. Let me repeat that for you: **Most sources are against this usage.** Example four: > [@](#): > > The apostrophe is often used in plurals of symbols. Again, since there can be no misreading, **this is often regarded as incorrect.** So, each example is at best a maybe. Hardly a ringing endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/10 "2012-02-27T10:33:35Z")
No discussion of apostrophe use is complete without [Bob’s Quick Guide to the Apostrophe, You Idiots](http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif). ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/11 "2012-02-27T10:52:38Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > No they don’t. Read your cite. It’s cute how some prescriptivists try to defend their sweeping, absolute pronouncements in the face of contrary evidence. 🙂 Prescriptivists: “Apostrophes are not used for plurals. That’s _all_ you need to know.” Descriptivist: “But a large proportion of people use them as plurals in some cases. For example, it’s generally agreed that it’s acceptable to use them to pluralize single lowercase letters.” Prescriptivist: “‘Acceptable’ doesn’t mean ‘correct’.” Descriptivist: “But some style guides say it is ‘correct’ to use apostrophes for plurals in other cases as well.” Prescriptivist: “They’re American, so they don’t count as correct English.” Descriptivist: “But still, presumably large numbers of people will be using these style guides.” Prescriptivist: “I don’t care. You said ‘a large proportion of people use apostrophes as plurals’, and all you’ve provided evidence for is that a large proportion of people use apostrophes as plurals, not that it’s _correct_ to do so.” Descriptivist: “But I never made any claim about correctness. In any case, what determines correctness if not widely accepted patterns of usage?” Prescriptivist: “Only non-American style guides whose rules I happen to agree with.” ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/12 "2012-02-27T12:04:26Z")
So, how do you pluralize the letter i without using an apostrophe? _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of i’s._ _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of is._ ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/13 "2012-02-27T12:52:36Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > It’s cute how some prescriptivists try to defend their sweeping, absolute pronouncements in the face of contrary evidence. 🙂 A few rare exceptions to the general rule doesn’t make the general rule wrong or unhelpful. If everyone followed Shakester’s rule then they would be “correct” nearly every time. There would only be a few rare exceptions where it _might_ aid clarity to add an apostrophe against the “rule.” In this way, Shakester’s rule really is all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/14 "2012-02-27T12:58:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No discussion of apostrophe use is complete without [Bob’s Quick Guide to the Apostrophe, You Idiots](http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif). [I am partial to The Oatmeal’s take on it.](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe) ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/15 "2012-02-27T12:59:41Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Next: Why can’t we remember the rules about question marks? If you know how to edit SDMB thread titles, let me know. I tried to remove it, and couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/16 "2012-02-27T13:03:05Z")
As I remember the 50’s, I was taught to use apostrophes in cases like that to show plurals. Perhaps the English language has moved on leaving me behind. I don’t have access to my fourth grade English book. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/17 "2012-02-27T13:19:18Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > So, how do you pluralize the letter i without using an apostrophe? > > _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of i’s._ > > _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of is._ Quite. I used to be annoyed by incorrect use of the apostrophe, but then I realized you can make a case for it sometimes. At least “taco’s” will be _phonetically_ parsed correctly, so the reader will usually understand what is meant. “Tacos” could conceivably be read as “tackoss”, and the reader might try to parse it as a unique noun, and not realize that all that is meant is the plural of taco. So, unconsciously perhaps, it could be seen as an attempt to aid clarity. Even though it is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/18 "2012-02-27T13:28:53Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > It’s cute how some prescriptivists try to defend their sweeping, absolute pronouncements in the face of contrary evidence. > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > A few rare exceptions to the general rule doesn’t make the general rule wrong or unhelpful. Well often being a “descriptivist” (as though it were a religion) is like a new toy for some people, who don’t understand that it applies to natural speech, rather than punctuation, (which is what we’re talking about here.) Being a “descriptivist” with punctuation is like saying that speed limits don’t exist because people don’t following them. ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/19 "2012-02-27T13:46:42Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I’ve met high school English teachers who put apostrophes in plurals. There’s pretty much no hope for literacy, I’m sorry to say. I recently came across some egregious misuses of the apostrophe, notably: Alway’s Remembered Our Baby’s (Referring to two children) My Two Treasure’s Carved into _gravestones_. I guess stupidity is fleeting, but ignorance is forever. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/20 "2012-02-27T13:48:51Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well often being a “descriptivist” (as though it were a religion) is like a new toy for some people, who don’t understand that it applies to natural speech, rather than punctuation, (which is what we’re talking about here.) Descriptivism no longer applies to punctuation? I try to keep up with the journals and conference proceedings as much as any other linguist, but I’m ashamed to admit I missed this particular momentous discovery. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127.md?page=2)