# Why cant we remember the rules about apostrophe's? ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127 "2012-02-27T07:01:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/41 "2012-02-27T20:02:55Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > There’s a store near me, called “Two Cousins Beauty Supply.” The overhead sign reads “Two Cousin’s . . . .” Whenever I drive past it I can’t help looking at the sign, as at a bad accident. Are you sure this isn’t meant to indicate that a couple of cousins own the shop, as in the possessive? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/42 "2012-02-27T20:17:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are you sure this isn’t meant to indicate that a couple of cousins own the shop, as in the possessive? Then it would be Two Cousins’ Beauty Supply. The only way Two Cousin’s would be correct would be if the owner is John “Two Cousin” Smith. (_“Funny story how I got that nickname. There was a big feud in my family and my parents never met growing up. But they ended up going to the same college…”_) ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/43 "2012-02-27T20:21:27Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > There’s a store near me, called “Two Cousins Beauty Supply.” The overhead sign reads “Two Cousin’s . . . .” Whenever I drive past it I can’t help looking at the sign, as at a bad accident. I was all about to call you out and say that shop names usually are possessive (Bob’s Diner, Clyde’s Bar) and sometimes people even add the ‘s’ when there isn’t one (Benihana’s, JC Penny’s), but then I realized that regardless, there are two cousins. ETA: Looks like ninjas..er, ninja’s… came into the thread, so instead I’ll just say that I FRIGGIN’ HATE when people add an imaginary ‘s’ to store names! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/44 "2012-02-27T20:22:05Z")
Sorry, that was meant to be sarcasm, directed at all those that insist that the “rules” are so fucking easy… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/45 "2012-02-27T20:38:48Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Punctuation—as part of writing–is an artifice (unlike speech), and so by its nature it’s prescriptivist… > > You can call them “rules” or “guidelines,” but that’s just semantics. I think deep down the core of your problem is that you simply don’t understand the definition of words and so just make up your own. That guarantees you can’t be wrong, from your viewpoint. But nobody else in the universe will ever agree with you. Specifically, “artifice” and “semantics”. It’s an interesting argument whether the brain has a natural grammar that underlies all languages, so that they form into a series of natural sentences that all speakers of a language understand, recognize, and speak without formal teaching. It seems to be true, at least to some extent. No English speaker would ever use “let go store to the us” instead of “let us go to the store”. That’s what linguists refer to as grammar. The schoolteacher’s grammar is an attempt to codify this natural underlying grammar. Some basic generalizations can be taught to children but that’s entirely artifice. Actual professional grammarians argue over everything. The “rules” of grammar that are immortalized in folklore - double negatives can’t be used, don’t split an infinitive, never end a sentence with a proposition - are entirely artificial, because these forms occur all the time in natural speech. Prescriptivism has only one definition: the creation and imposition of non-natural rules on natural grammar. Everything else is guidelines. You can never use rules and guidelines interchangeably. Semantics in this sense - it also has a technical meaning in linguistics - is simply meaning. When you claim that something is just semantics the normal connotation is that both term really mean the same thing, and that trying to make a distinction is actually confusing the issue. This is the opposite. Rules and guidelines are totally distinct. That’s not a semantic difference: that’s the entire core of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/46 "2012-02-27T20:38:48Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Yes, but authority wasn’t my point at all. It’s just an example for the very nature of convention. Writing is all about conventions. A society decides (by whatever means, and for whatever reasons) to set speed limits. Just like punctuation, they’re conventions, or artificial constructs (why 65 mph and not 67?) If you decide that you want to drive under the speed limit, you need to know what it is—you can’t just look at how fast the other drivers are going. It will vary from state to state, from freeway to country road—there is no God-determined “correct speed,” but on whatever road you happen to be on, there almost always is a speed limit that someone has determined. It doesn’t go away just because people don’t actually obey it. Of course that doesn’t mean you can’t get where you need to go if you violate the speed limit—nor does it mean that the cops are always going to give you a ticket if you go seven mph faster that what is posted. It’s like putting silverware in the right place when setting a fancy dinner table. People still can use the utensils no matter where they’re placed, but they’re still going to expect them to be in certain places, and those assignments will vary from culture to culture. They’re arbitrary, variable, and often “violated,” but they still exist nevertheless. You can call them “rules” or “guidelines,” but that’s just semantics. It’s not just semantics. There’s a difference between a rule and a guideline and a loose de facto agreement, in decreasing order of authoritativeness. I think punctuation is more akin to a guideline inherited from dead elites and gradually morphing into new agreements among the more-or-less literate masses. The internet is butchering Old Guard English quicker than is comfortable for many, but in the end what is correct or not for English will be defined by a simple popularity contest, not esoteric arguments between old white scholars who are becoming increasingly removed and irrelevant. In other words, “writing is all about conventions”, but those conventions are changing at the whim of writers, rigid traditionalist and loose pragmatist alike, whether we like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/47 "2012-02-27T20:44:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sorry, that was meant to be sarcasm, directed at all those that insist that the “rules” are so fucking easy… Well in this case they are pretty easy. This is not like i before e where the exceptions seem to outnumber the rule, for the vast majority of cases of apostrophe use, the simple rule works. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/48 "2012-02-27T20:45:07Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > So, how do you pluralize the letter i without using an apostrophe? > > _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of i’s._ > > _Jim was crushed to death under a pile of is._ Jim was crushed to death under a pile of "i"s. The proper way to refer to a string of letters as the letters or words (rather than as a normal part of the sentence) is to offset them with quotes. For example: “Is a sentence fragment” is a sentence fragment. The quoted portion is quoted to mean that the string within quotes is the actual subject of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/49 "2012-02-27T20:59:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “Should _An Idiot Abroad_ be filed under the as or the is?” just doesn’t look right to me. I feel “Should _An Idiot Abroad_ be filed under the a’s or the i’s?” is better. > [@pulykamell](#): > > It ain’t pretty, but you could do "a"s and "i"s, if you wanted to. I stick with a’s and i’s myself. I’d prefer to rephrase it as “Should _An Idiot Abroad_ be filed under ‘A’ or ‘I’”, with or without the single quotes. Cleaner and simpler. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/50 "2012-02-27T21:07:30Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’ve started having a special apostrophe penalty in my courses: the first error is free (hey, we all make typos), but the second mistake with an apostrophe is a whopping and disproportionate amount of the grade. They gripe, but they learn to get it right. Sounds like an effective way of demoralising your students to me. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Jim was crushed to death under a pile of "i"s. I agree that’s better, but I’d quite happily accept i’s as an alternative, as it’s functionally equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/51 "2012-02-27T21:11:47Z")
> [@postcards](#): > > I’d prefer to rephrase it as “Should _An Idiot Abroad_ be filed under ‘A’ or ‘I’”, with or without the single quotes. Cleaner and simpler. Sure. But I’ve never been a fan of the “recast the sentence” cop-outs when the sentence is a perfectly good English sentence. Let’s pretend you’re quoting something verbatim. How would you punctuate it? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/52 "2012-02-27T22:37:38Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I agree that’s better, but I’d quite happily accept i’s as an alternative, as it’s functionally equivalent. Is it? Yes, people will probably understand you, but I bet they’d do so if you put any odd punctuation mark there to set things off. a_s or i_s a!s or i!s a)s or i)s All of those would probably be understood, but it’s tough to argue that they’re equivalent. I think the reason that a’s and i’s seems correct is how similar it is to 'a’s and 'i’s. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/53 "2012-02-27T22:56:55Z")
Actual sign I saw a number of years ago: Cameron for School Board Cause Cameron Care’s Guess who I didn’t vote for. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/54 "2012-02-27T23:04:35Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Sounds like an effective way of demoralising your students to me. I’m not here to be a cheerleader. I’m here to teach them skills. One of those skills is an attention to detail in their writing. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/55 "2012-02-27T23:25:33Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > a_s or i_s > > a!s or i!s > > a)s or i)s > > All of those would probably be understood, but it’s tough to argue that they’re equivalent. No, those wouldn’t be functionally equivalent. Anyone seeing that on, say, a webpage would assume there had been a typo or formatting error. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m not here to be a cheerleader. I’m here to teach them skills. One of those skills is an attention to detail in their writing. Out of interest, what do you teach? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/56 "2012-02-27T23:29:37Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Out of interest, what do you teach? A whole variety of subjects, but among them writing courses. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/57 "2012-02-28T00:10:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sure. But I’ve never been a fan of the “recast the sentence” cop-outs when the sentence is a perfectly good English sentence. Let’s pretend you’re quoting something verbatim. How would you punctuate it? I agree. You shouldn’t change the words because of difficulties you encounter. Imagine if you tried that in mathematics: _“I found this calculus problem to be somewhat complicated. So I decided to solve an arithmetic problem instead.”_ ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/58 "2012-02-28T00:10:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > My favourite example is the “Teachers Union”.\* People discovered that they could live without the apostrophe in the plural, and it’s having a demoralizing effect on the singular. > > \*I have had teachers tell me this is correct because the teachers do not own the union. I may be misunderstanding you, but “Teachers Union” looks quite correct, on the model of “trades union”. It’s not a possessive form; it’s two nouns in apposition. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/59 "2012-02-28T00:13:56Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m here to teach them skills. One of those skills is an attention to detail in their writing. I agree. It’s one thing to break a rule by choice. But it’s wrong to be break a rule by ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127/60 "2012-02-28T00:40:01Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > I may be misunderstanding you, but “Teachers Union” looks quite correct, on the model of “trades union”. It’s not a possessive form; it’s two nouns in apposition. I don’t think that it is, but I am not claiming some super authoritative knowledge. Can you explain why you think the nouns are in apposition, rather than “union” being modified by “teachers” (or “trades”)? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree. It’s one thing to break a rule by choice. But it’s wrong to be break a rule by ignorance. Would it be better to give them all a pony just for showing up? How am I supposed to evaluate their writing if not by holding them accountable for the conventions of writing English? Besides, the draconian penalty is spelled out in the assignment directions, so it’s not like I’m blindsiding them with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-we-remember-the-rules-about-apostrophes/614127.md?page=4)