# Why can't you keep the football? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331 "2006-11-06T18:42:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diddledog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Diddledog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diddledog)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/21 "2006-11-06T20:59:28Z")
I just can’t imagine the cost of the footballs has anything to do with it, unless the NFL is stingy to the point of ridiculousness. A football costs a lot more than a baseball, but far fewer end up in the stands. And with fans paying a fortune for tickets and hot dogs, and cities building stadiums for the owners for free, what’s a dozen footballs per game? Chump change for everyone involved. Fights in the stands makes more sense, though it doesn’t seem to be an unreasonable problem for baseball. I guess we need a Reuben Berman to sue for emotional distress because he wanted a football. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/22 "2006-11-06T21:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] In cricket, where it is reasonably common for the ball to be hit outside the field of play (and the batter scores 6 runs for this), the ball gets returned to the field. Part of the reason would be that the amount of wear on the ball affects how the ball plays, and if the ball were lost or went out of play, it would need to be replaced with a similarly worn ball. [/QUOTE] That’s makes for an interesting distinction between cricket and baseball. Baseball rules require that the home plate umpire replace a ball showing visible wear with a brand new ball. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/23 "2006-11-06T21:32:54Z")
I seem to recall that part of the legal basis for “souvenier baseballs” was the notion that they were “intentionally abandoned property”, and that as such, the old principle of “finders keepers” applied. I suppose that the presence of the nets keeps footballs from being considered **intentionally** abandoned, though, even if they get through or past the net somehow: The net would probably signify an intention for the team to keep the ball. While there would doubtless be some fights over footballs in the stands, there are fights over baseballs, too, and I’d imagine also over hockey pucks. Why is this considered acceptable for baseball and hockey, but not for football or most other sports? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/24 "2006-11-06T21:42:00Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] I seem to recall that part of the legal basis for “souvenier baseballs” was the notion that they were “intentionally abandoned property”, and that as such, the old principle of “finders keepers” applied. [/QUOTE] Cart before horse. The balls became abandoned when the teams decided fans could keep them. > [@](#): > > When Keeping A Foul Ball Ran Afoul of the Law > All professional baseball teams have a policy on foul balls, something akin to: Fans are welcome to keep any foul ball hit into the stands. At no time should a ball be thrown back into the field of play. Foul balls may be dangerous and fans should remain alert to on-field activities at all times. > > But 80 years ago no such policy existed. At that time, the “Dead Ball” era of baseball was just becoming a distant memory (courtesy of the Herculean feats of Babe Ruth) and fans were not allowed to keep a foul ball that was hit into the stands. But the history of the game was again about to be altered. > > One afternoon in 1923, 11-year-old Reuben Berman refused to give back a ball that was hit into the stands while attending a game at Philadelphia’s Baker Bowl. This angered the owners of the Phillies, who detained him overnight and pressed charges. > > When a judge threw the case out of court, Berman became the first fan legally entitled to a foul ball, and thus began a baseball tradition that remains intact today. [http://www.baseballtips.com/newsletter/31.html](http://www.baseballtips.com/newsletter/31.html) BTW, from the news articles and other commentary I have seen on the case, the judge didn’t rule that the ball was abandoned–he said Berman only did what came natural and should not be criminally penalized. \*E.g., \* > [@](#): > > but the reviewing judge sided with Berman - he argued that the lad was just following his instincts and couldn’t be blamed for wanting to keep a souvenir. [http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Ballparks/Phi/Baker.htm](http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Ballparks/Phi/Baker.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/25 "2006-11-06T22:29:12Z")
Wasn’t there a Monday Night game a few years ago where some guy either jumped or fell out of the stands going after a ball? I almost want to say the guy jumped over a railing to catch the ball. He landed ok, but a stunt like that could have gotten him or someone else seriously injured… ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/26 "2006-11-06T22:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Wasn’t there a Monday Night game a few years ago where some guy either jumped or fell out of the stands going after a ball? [/QUOTE] Is this what you are thinking of? > [@](#): > > Mike Pantazis was surely everyone’s off-field favorite. He’s the Bears fan who perfectly timed a 20-foot leap out of the stands, cleanly catching Kevin Butler’s extra point in his descent with not so much as a bobble. I got to see that play . . . oh, about four times. America does have its penchant for watching Chicago fans catch balls from the stands. > **[sportsfanmagazine.com - This website is for sale! - sportsfanmagazine...](http://www.sportsfanmagazine.com/sfm/articles.html?id=2291)** > > This website is for sale! sportsfanmagazine.com is your first and best source for information about sportsfanmagazine. Here you will also find topics relating to issues of general interest. We hope you find what you are looking for! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/27 "2006-11-06T23:38:58Z")
If I recall correctly, in the NFL Championship game where the Bears whalloped the Washington Redskins 73-0 (1940), the last two touchdowns the Bears were required to attempt to convert by other than kick, the prior 9 touchdowns having resulted in all the available balls being kicked into the stands. That may be an urban legend; they may have given up on kicks because the kicker missed converting three times out of 9, but I remember that story from a history of that game. While there is no objective reason that NFL footballs cannot be allowed to be kept (they certainly cannot be worried about cost, etc.), I think they don’t do it mostly out of the tradition developed back when cost WAS an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/28 "2006-11-07T00:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Is this what you are thinking of? > **[sportsfanmagazine.com - This website is for sale! - sportsfanmagazine...](http://www.sportsfanmagazine.com/sfm/articles.html?id=2291)** > > This website is for sale! sportsfanmagazine.com is your first and best source for information about sportsfanmagazine. Here you will also find topics relating to issues of general interest. We hope you find what you are looking for! [/QUOTE] Yup, that’s the incident. Nice article in the link, too. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/29 "2006-11-07T00:36:31Z")
I’ll note that the NHL has had nets behind the goals for several years now. A girl died about 6 years ago when a puck hit her in the chest, and the NHL, wary of possible future lawsuits, put the nets up. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/30 "2006-11-07T08:13:48Z")
Question to Giles: If in cricket they expect balls being used to be worn down, how often do they change the cricket ball? Also, is there a great difference in new balls as opposed to worn balls, or is their composition such that there’s little difference? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/31 "2006-11-07T08:31:39Z")
A few years ago, I attended home football games involving the University of Minnesota Gophers (on Saturday) and the Minnesota Vikings (on Sunday), both held in the same stadium. And both games had a football that went into the stands, and both went to a young boy in the audience (different boys each day). The Vikings sent ushers over to demand the ball back, causing the young boy who had it to try to hide it under his seat, to play keep-away by tossing it to other people nearby, etc. There was a lot of booing from fans nearby, and several blocked aisles and otherwise interfered with the ushers attempting to close in on the boy. Eventually called some cops over, who threatened several people in the area, captured the kid, took away the ball and left him crying. Real unpleasant feeling. The Gophers sent one equipment guy over to the front of the stands. He yelled up “The University needs that ball back. After the game, ask an usher to escort you to the locker room with that ball, please.” Then he went back to the bench area. So the boy with the ball got to go to the team locker room, meet some players, presumably get some autographs and pictures with the players, etc. The boy was delighted, and could hardly wait for the game to be over. Made his dad go out and buy several team pennants so he could get them autographed. Both teams got their footballs back. But the Gophers certainly got better publicity out of the way they handled the situation! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/32 "2006-11-07T16:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=installLSC] Question to Giles: If in cricket they expect balls being used to be worn down, how often do they change the cricket ball? Also, is there a great difference in new balls as opposed to worn balls, or is their composition such that there’s little difference? [/QUOTE] Yes, I’m also interested in more information about this. I believe that in baseball, one of the reasons why they want to keep replacing the ball with a new ball is that a scuffed up ball gives too much advantage to the pitcher, for at least two reasons: (1) a dirty ball is harder to see, and (2) worn balls or balls with foreign substances like dirt on them are more easily used for “trick” pitches, some of which are illegal. Ever since 1968, in particular, Major League Baseball has been concerned with limiting a good pitcher’s ability to absolutely dominate the game and shut down the offense. I suppose that means that this isn’t considered much of a problem in cricket (The number of runs scored in cricket matches shows us, I guess, that bowlers don’t dominate the game like pitchers do in baseball.) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/33 "2006-11-07T16:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=installLSC] Question to Giles: If in cricket they expect balls being used to be worn down, how often do they change the cricket ball? Also, is there a great difference in new balls as opposed to worn balls, or is their composition such that there’s little difference? [/QUOTE] I confess that I’m not a great expert on any sport, so I checked in Wikipedia. The article on [Cricket ball](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_ball) says: > [@](#): > > A cricket ball may not be replaced except under specific conditions described in the Laws of Cricket: > \* If the ball becomes damaged or lost. > \* If the condition of the ball is illegally modified by a player. > \* If, after a specified number of overs (80 in Test cricket), the captain of the bowling side requests a new ball. > > The ball is not replaced if it is hit into the crowd - the crowd must return it (unlike in baseball). If the ball is damaged, lost, or illegally modified, it will be replaced by a used ball in similar condition to the replaced ball. A new ball can only be used after the specified minimum number of overs have been bowled with the old one. > > Because a single ball is used for an extended period of play, its surface wears down and becomes rough. The bowlers will polish it whenever they can - usually by rubbing it on their trousers, producing the characteristic red stain that can often be seen there. However, they will usually only polish one side of the ball, in order to create ‘swing’ as it travels through the air. They may apply natural substances (i.e. saliva or sweat) to the ball as they polish it, but any other material is illegal. I hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/34 "2006-11-07T18:14:10Z")
Remember one fundamental difference in cricket bowling from baseball pitching: The cricket ball INTENTIONALLY bounces before it gets to the wicket! So, the MLB practice of replacing any ball that has hit the dirt would be very difficult to apply to a cricket game… ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/35 "2006-11-07T19:16:15Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I believe that in baseball, one of the reasons why they want to keep replacing the ball with a new ball is that a scuffed up ball gives too much advantage to the pitcher, for at least two reasons: (1) a dirty ball is harder to see, and (2) worn balls or balls with foreign substances like dirt on them are more easily used for “trick” pitches, some of which are illegal. [/QUOTE] At the beginning of the season in 1920 Major League Baseball outlawed the spitball and other pitches that relied on modification of the ball. That same year Ray Chapman was hit in the head and killed by a pitch. The ball that hit Chapman had been in the game for a while and was dirty and hard to see. People thought that he might have gotten out of the way of the pitch if the ball had been easier to see. From that point on the umpires were instructed to keep fresh balls in play at all times. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/36 "2006-11-07T21:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=Jeff Lichtman] At the beginning of the season in 1920 Major League Baseball outlawed the spitball and other pitches that relied on modification of the ball. That same year Ray Chapman was hit in the head and killed by a pitch. The ball that hit Chapman had been in the game for a while and was dirty and hard to see. People thought that he might have gotten out of the way of the pitch if the ball had been easier to see. From that point on the umpires were instructed to keep fresh balls in play at all times. [/QUOTE] True, but the present way that MLB deals with balls is to remove them from play the minute they have come into ANY contact with the dirt surfaces. That’s not like the old days where the umpire would look at the ball, wipe it off, and toss it back to the pitcher. They still look at them, from time to time, but they never toss them back. And THAT has more to do with the ability of pitchers to use scuff marks to their advantage than anything else. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/37 "2006-11-07T22:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] I confess that I’m not a great expert on any sport, so I checked in Wikipedia. The article on [Cricket ball](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_ball) says: I hope that helps. [/QUOTE] Just to expand on **Giles** ’s post: You will notice that, in Test Cricket, a ball can be replaced under normal conditions after 80 overs. An over is six deliveries, so that means a Test Match cricket ball gets bowled 480 times before it is replaced. Not only that, but unlike a baseball, a cricket ball does not generally reach the batter on the full; it bounces on the ground between the bowler (pitcher) and the batter. So, as well as getting hit by the bat, the ball also gets hit and scuffed by the ground. A cricket ball is slightly smaller, a bit heavier, and harder than a baseball. It is made of a cork core, wound around with very tight string, and covered in leather. Unlike a baseball, the pieces of leather in a cricket ball are sewn together in a straight circumference around the ball, dividing it into two hemispheres. The two halves are held together by three rows of stitches on each side, leading to the nickname “six stitcher” for a cricket ball. [Here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Cricket_ball_G%26M.jpg/717px-Cricket_ball_G%26M.jpg) is a picture of one. The red color is the result of dying. When the ball is new, it is very hard, and bounces quickly off the wicket (the ground). The red shine on the ball also allows it to move through the air, in a manner similar to a curve ball in baseball. This effect can be accentuated by polishing one side of the ball. Bowlers will often spit on one side of the ball and rub that side on their trouser leg, giving it some “shine” and making it easier to move the ball through the air. Bowlers can also get movement off the wicket (known as “cut”) by bouncing the seam of the ball on the ground. If the ball bounces on the seam, it can deviate left or right quite suddenly, making life difficult for the batter. As the ball is used, and gets older, it gets softer. The shine goes away, and the seam flattens out. But, the increasing roughness of the ball can make it susceptible to “spin.” That is, there are certain bowlers, called spinners, who make the ball spin in flight, in such a way that when the ball hits the ground, the spinning motion makes it jump to the left or to the right. For the above reasons, the first bowlers used in a cricket match are generally fast bowlers, whose speed and ability to bounce the ball off the wicket can take advantage of the new, hard ball. By contrast, spinners are usually utilized in a cricket match when the ball gets older, because the shiny new ball often can’t get enough grip on the ground to spin very well, but the rougher old ball can get a grip and will spin much more readily. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/38 "2006-11-07T23:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] When the ball is new, it is very hard, and bounces quickly off the wicket (the ground). [/QUOTE] Minor nitpick: the “wicket” is the stumps, not the ground. [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicket) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/39 "2006-11-07T23:48:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diddledog] baseball, snagging a foul ball or a homer is one of the joys of going to the game, but during most football games, they hoist a net behind the goal post … [/QUOTE] Note that it’s standard practices at professional baseball game to have a net covering the stands behind home plate, so that balls fouled back behind the plate can be retrieved. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331/40 "2006-11-07T23:57:30Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] Minor nitpick: the “wicket” is the stumps, not the ground. [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicket) [/QUOTE] Well, i have been watching cricket all my life and, that Wikipedia article notwithstanding, the ground between the two sets of stumps has alternately been referred to as the “pitch” and the “wicket” for as long as i can remember. Hence the term “sticky wicket,” or the sentence “The batman advanced down the wicket to get the ball on the half-volley.” It’s true that the term was originally meant to apply specifically to the stumps themselves, but if you’ll read your own link you’ll see: > [@](#): > > The word wicket is also sometimes used to refer to the cricket pitch itself. According to the Laws of Cricket, this usage is incorrect, but it is in common usage and commonly understood by cricket followers. If you tell a cricketer that there are “some cracks in the wicket” and he wants to verify your claim, i can assure you that he will inspect the condition of the ground before he inspects the condition of the stumps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cant-you-keep-the-football/379331.md?page=3)