# Why capitalize "Black"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455 "2023-01-01T09:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/181 "2023-01-02T11:02:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Coloureds like me, for one thing. Nama. San. Arabs. Berbers. Whites. There’s a whole lot of non-Black Africans. You are misunderstanding me. If I do not know how someone prefers to be addressed or referred to, and they are from Africa, I call them African, _ **without reference to skin tone** _. Of course, if I know what state they come from I can call them Nigerian, or South African. I know a family of refugees here in the US, for example, who don’t seem to have a country, because the mother and father spent more than a decade in refugee camps in several African countries and the children have known no other life. Where are they from? Africa. They are dark skinned, you would call them “black”. Maybe small b maybe large, it’s ambiguous. I’m guessing the children will grow up identifying as Black, but the parents? They don’t speak English, they know little of American Black culture or any American culture. Their friends are other African refugees. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/182 "2023-01-02T11:24:39Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > This distinction is more important in South Africa than in the US. In the US, there really is something of a “Black culture” in ways there isn’t in SA, where ethnic, _in situ_ cultural designators like “Zulu” or “Khoi-San” are more salient.) That’s not strictly true - there definitely is an overarching “Black” culture that crosses nationalities like Zulu and Xhosa, especially nowadays when a) there is some cross-nation intermarriage and b) there’s a large population of African immigrants. These factors and others combine to create what’s sometimes also called “Township culture”, where people speak a creole and socialize as Blacks across national lines. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > You are misunderstanding me Looks like - it seemed like you were saying you would say “African” _instead of_ “Black” for Black Africans. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/183 "2023-01-02T11:26:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not strictly true - there definitely is an overarching “Black” culture that crosses nationalities like Zulu and Xhosa, especially nowadays when a) there is some cross-nation intermarriage and b) there’s a large population of African immigrants. These factors and others combine to create what’s sometimes also called “Township culture”, where people speak a creole Good to know - thanks! Yeah, I wasn’t saying this doesn’t exist _at all_ in South Africa, just that it’s relatively more salient in the US, which lacks equivalents of Zulu, etc. altogether. The Nation of Islam notwithstanding. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/184 "2023-01-02T11:39:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Looks like - it seemed like you were saying you would say “African” _instead of_ “Black” for Black Africans. Yes, I would – but I note that my knowledge of the various African cultures is not nearly extensive enough to do much of anything else without other directives, and I don’t have occasion to need to bone up on it. As always, I merely try to avoid offense. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/185 "2023-01-02T12:07:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If I want to say someone is dark-skinned, I’ll say that, not that they’re black. Yeah, if we are talking about the actual color of skin, people tend to range from pale pink through dark brown. I guess people sometimes say “he’s white as a sheet” to indicate the blood has (mostly) left the skin. > [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s not strictly true - there definitely is an overarching “Black” culture that crosses nationalities like Zulu and Xhosa, especially nowadays when a) there is some cross-nation intermarriage and b) there’s a large population of African immigrants. These factors and others combine to create what’s sometimes also called “Township culture”, where people speak a creole and socialize as Blacks across national lines. Interesting to learn. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/186 "2023-01-02T14:10:56Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I think the idea that there are in fact “races” is ridiculous. Biologists agree with you; however, the simple fact of the matter is that societies all around the world have divided peoples into racial groups and treated people differently depending on the perceived racial groups. > [@scudsucker](#): > > I should mention that I grew up in a fairly race-obsessive country (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe) and moved to another, similarly obsessed with race, South Africa. > > I really do not understand racism, and the reasoning (or lack of) behind it. It’s so weird. I really do not understand how someone who grew up in those countries does not understand racism. Did you miss or never learn of apartheid? \<–rhetorical question. > [@scudsucker](#): > > Ethicity doesn’t correlate with culture, witness the Australian aborigines and Eastern Indonesian, both of whom have dark skin. Regarding the Australian Aborigines: have you never heard of the Stolen Generations? The Australian Blacks were treated horribly by the Australian government for decades, if not longer. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > A few generations ago WASPs didn’t think the Irish were white either. I seriously doubt this is true, so I must ask: cite? I believe the Irish were always considered white in America, just not all that desirable. > [@octopus](#): > > It was because it was an opportunity to jump on a band wagon after the murder of George Floyd. Care to explain how your bullshit applies to those major press and media outfits using the capital letter _before_ Geroge Floyd was murdered? > [@sciurophobic](#): > > _quote from the Washington Post_: > Stories involving race show that White also represents a distinct cultural identity in the United States. In American history, many White Europeans who entered the country during times of mass migration were the targets of racial and ethnic discrimination. These diverse ethnicities were eventually assimilated into the collective group that has had its own cultural and historical impact on the nation. As such, White should be represented with a capital W. Horseshit. There is absolutely no equivalency between slavery of Blacks and whites automatically being considered part of the dominant racial group in the United States. I really thought the Post was better than this. > [@steronz](#): > > Elon Musk is African American. No, he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/187 "2023-01-02T14:22:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Biologists agree with you; however, the simple fact of the matter is that societies all around the world have divided peoples into racial groups and treated people differently depending on the perceived racial groups. Way I think about it is, dollars have no basis in physics or chemistry. They’re purely a social construct; and, what’s more, they’re defined differently by different cultures and at different times. You’d be hard-pressed to come up with a definition of “a dollar” that’s specific enough to be useful and broad enough to apply to every occasion in which the word is used. But if you go around saying, “I don’t see dollars,” you’re going to look like a fool. Race is a lot like dollars, only worse. > [@Monty](#): > > I seriously doubt this is true, so I must ask: cite? I believe the Irish were always considered white in America, just not all that desirable. [This is a controversial idea.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States#Irish_Americans) As far as I can tell, it depends on what you mean by White, and the degree to which White supremacy was once Anglo supremacy. Certainly it appears that at times the supposedly darker skin of Irish immigrants was used by supposedly paler folks of British descent to imply that Irish folks were subhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/188 "2023-01-02T14:24:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@Ulfreida](#): > > > > A few generations ago WASPs didn’t think the Irish were white either. > > I seriously doubt this is true, so I must ask: cite? I believe the Irish were always considered white in America, just not all that desirable. Well yes. Irish and Poles and Italians after them: a cut above NonWhite, but only just. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/189 "2023-01-02T15:04:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then just say that. Sure. I can say that…I don’t have any intentional preconceptions,I did my utmost to remove them. I very much dislike my own white privilege. It is completely unfair to a large group of people, many of whom ended up as colleagues and friends. I mean, yes, I have profited from my white privilege but I am not special just because of my skin colour - in my opinion. White privilege tends to favour the opposite, which I completely disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/190 "2023-01-02T15:16:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I really do not understand how someone who grew up in those countries does not understand racism. Did you miss or never learn of apartheid I meant, I don’t understand racisim. I grew up in early Zimbabwe with multiracial school classes. A pretty homogeneous (though i must note, middle class) society. Why hate your best friend? My kids go to multiracial schools. Their friends are acoss the spectrum of skin colour. The whole concept is bizarre ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/191 "2023-01-02T15:32:31Z")
Now @octopus has entered this thread, I’d prefer to step out. I have made a request to the mods to close it… ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/192 "2023-01-02T16:08:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Horseshit. There is absolutely no equivalency between slavery of Blacks and whites automatically being considered part of the dominant racial group in the United States. I really thought the Post was better than this. Automatically? How does “targets of racial and ethnic discrimination” + “eventually assimilated” = “automatically”? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/193 "2023-01-02T16:36:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But no-one would _actually_ be uncertain if I said “They cast Lenny Henry, Ismael Cruz Cordova and Sophia Nomvete, three Black actors, in _Rings of Power_” Those are three very different people of three very different ethnicities and backgrounds. Would they all fit under whatever definition of “Black” you are using? Would they appreciate you doing so? Are you using capital B black for a specific reason? If so, what is that reason? Personally, absent any other explanation from you I’d assume you were lumping them together on skin tone alone. I suspect many others would assume that also. In that respect your use of that term might not cause any great uncertainty in a wide audience. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/194 "2023-01-02T16:50:50Z")
Oh come on. That’s the sort of absurdly pedantic nonsense my autistic 11 year old kid tries with me when he’s trying to weasel out of doing chores. “Black” when used as a descriptor generally means of African descent. You’d describe a Congolese man as “black”, but not necessarily “Black”. Same for someone like Lenny Henry who’s neither African, nor Black in the capitalized sense of being part of the US Black community. It’s a sort of verbal shorthand meant to describe someone of African descent without going into all the words that describe that, and there’s nothing wrong with using it as such- it’s not racist any more than saying someone is asian, hispanic, white, etc… IMO, going out of your way to NOT use terms like that is just virtue signaling. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/195 "2023-01-02T17:49:41Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s a sort of verbal shorthand meant to describe someone of African descent without going into all the words that describe that, and there’s nothing wrong with using it as such- it’s not racist any more than saying someone is asian, hispanic, white, etc… It may not be racist, but it’s certainly divisive. And it’s meant to be. Black and white are opposite colours. They are two different categories, never mind all the shades of grey in between. That was my point about not knowing and black or white people. If see other human beings as part of the same continuum rather than separate categories, for which the labels are not even accurate, then we might have an actual opportunity for empathy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/196 "2023-01-02T18:11:15Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Would they all fit under whatever definition of “Black” you are using? Would they appreciate you doing so? I quite specifically picked 3 people who I _knew_ have themselves claimed Black identity (among their other identities, such as Latino or Iranian) > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you using capital B black for a specific reason? If so, what is that reason? It’s what I’ve always used, it’s what I was taught during the Struggle, I see no reason to change, especially now that it’s becoming more the norm. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Personally, absent any other explanation from you I’d assume you were lumping them together on skin tone alone. In the same thread where I’ve been pointing out that Romesh is Brown? His skin tone is way darker than Cordova’s. That’s an assumption people are free to make, but it’s not one I actually feed. That’s entirely on them/you. > [@bump](#): > > Oh come on. That’s the sort of absurdly pedantic nonsense my autistic 11 year old kid tries with me when he’s trying to weasel out of doing chores. No, it’s a very real distinction. > [@bump](#): > > “Black” when used as a descriptor generally means of African descent. Tell that to Australian Aborigines. > [@bump](#): > > You’d describe a Congolese man as “black”, but not necessarily “Black”. _I_ wouldn’t. > [@bump](#): > > Same for someone like Lenny Henry who’s neither African, nor Black in the capitalized sense of being part of the US Black community. Americans don’t own capital letters, and Blacks outside America have used it for themselves for years. > [@bump](#): > > there’s nothing wrong with using it as such- And _your_ authority to decide for _me_ what is and isn’t wrong for me to say when it comes to race-related things is what, exactly? Actually, no, fuck that, that was way too polite. Fuck you and your insulting, infantilizing, disabling analogy. I’m an adult Brown man with a long history with racism, and you can fuck off with comparing me to your chore-shucking by-blow, motherfucker. > [@bump](#): > > IMO, going out of your way to NOT use terms like that is just virtue signaling. People actually _don’t_ use terms like “asian” and “hispanic” for people. They capitalize both of those. Unless they’re trying to _virtue-signal_ their dumb-ass contrariness, that is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/197 "2023-01-02T18:37:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The rationale for capitalizing the b in black fails to take that into account and leads to ridiculous contradictions. … The real reason major press and media took the stance they did was not because of deep reasoning. It was because it was an opportunity to jump on a band wagon after the murder of George Floyd. Did you miss that I’ve been using Black for about two decades, since a colleague said she preferred it? And that many of the media switched before George Floyd’s murder? This is hardly a brand new thing. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/198 "2023-01-02T18:50:20Z")
Just wanna pop in here and mention I’ve been an English editor for post production for over 21 years. Clients requested “black” be capitalized since before 2018. Each company I’ve worked for and in tandem with has this as a basic rule for company guidelines. Printed media started this well before the post industry did. So it’s not really a new thing. The general rule is capitalize the word when “referring to Black people or Black culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/199 "2023-01-02T19:04:12Z")
If nothing else, this thread is a great example of how difficult in can be to categorize people. We’re complicated. If someone were to ask me my ethnicity, I’d say American. I’m also comfortable with white, though you’ll see I don’t capitalize it as it’s just not my custom, and if you press me I might talk about my Scottish roots. One of the reasons I don’t mind White is because I’m not really Scottish. My ancestors arrived in what would become the United States prior to the 1770s, at this point I can’t really say my ethnicity is Scottish or even Scotch-Irish, and some other places don’t even recognize the Scotch-Irish as a distinct group. What’s a fella to do? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/200 "2023-01-02T19:09:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Way I think about it is, dollars have no basis in physics or chemistry. They’re purely a social construct; and, what’s more, they’re defined differently by different cultures and at different times. You’d be hard-pressed to come up with a definition of “a dollar” that’s specific enough to be useful and broad enough to apply to every occasion in which the word is used. But if you go around saying, “I don’t see dollars,” you’re going to look like a fool. > > Race is a lot like dollars, only worse. That is a great description, especially since a lot of countries call their currency _dollar_ currently. The New Zealand dollar is not the same as the [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=11)