# Why capitalize "Black"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455 "2023-01-01T09:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/201 "2023-01-02T19:24:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The New Zealand dollar is not the same as the Well, that’s easy for _you_ to say… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/202 "2023-01-02T19:37:40Z")
No. I am aware that it was used rarely prior to the murder of George Floyd which is why I said the major media and news adopted it at that point. And that is when AP, NYT, et al in fact did make the change. I have seen woman written as womyn doesn’t mean that it is widespread. When it goes from less than 1% usage to being the dictated style in major media then that shift would noteworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/203 "2023-01-02T19:51:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I quite specifically picked 3 people who I _knew_ have themselves claimed Black identity (among their other identities, such as Latino or Iranian) Are you sure they are using it in the same way that you are? Is “Black identity” merely something one claims for oneself? > [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s what I’ve always used, it’s what I was taught during the Struggle, I see no reason to change, especially now that it’s becoming more the norm. That doesn’t speak to the definition that you are using, and surely we can both agree that usage changes and evolves. > [@MrDibble](#): > > In the same thread where I’ve been pointing out that Romesh is Brown? His skin tone is way darker than Cordova’s. That’s an assumption people are free to make, but it’s not one I actually feed. That’s entirely on them/you. So we come back to what is the definition you are using for either the capitalised “Black” or “Brown”? If not skin colour or ethnicity then what prompts you to distinguish between their usage? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/204 "2023-01-02T19:54:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I am aware that it was used rarely prior to the murder of George Floyd Not from what I and plenty of other posters have said. The term for people who culturally identify themselves and are so identified by others as Black shifts around fairly regularly. But Black has been around since the sixties, sometimes popular, sometimes deprecated. Right now it’s on the upswing. And you know what else? It isn’t anything like as important as how people are treated. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/205 "2023-01-02T19:55:05Z")
I don’t even understand how we can have this conversation across borders. Black culture and ethnicity in the US will be different than in the UK, and very different from, say, Liberia. Anyway, the OP has requested this thread be closed a couple of times now, so I’ll report my post. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/206 "2023-01-02T20:00:47Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t even understand how we can have this conversation across borders. Black culture and ethnicity in the US will be different than in the UK, and very different from, say, Liberia. well quite, we have Dibble’s usage from South Africa, various other posters from the USA with variations on a theme, Me and a couple of others from the UK but with multi-national contacts and experiences and what do you know? no consensus possible other than a point a lot of us have made…i.e. Treat others as individuals and, absent any trolling on their part, describe them in terms that they are comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/207 "2023-01-02T20:09:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Are you sure they are using it in the same way that you are? I’m sure the way they use it is _part of_ the way I use it. That there is no disagreement between us as to whether _they_ are Black or not. They may consider more, or different, people Black than I do, or _vice versa_. That’s not a problem, as far as I can see. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Is “Black identity” merely something one claims for oneself? No- see Rachel Dolezal. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That doesn’t speak to the definition that you are using I have no idea what you’re saying, here. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > surely we can both agree that usage changes and evolves. Sure. But like I said, I’ve been presented with no good reason to change my usage. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If not skin colour or ethnicity then what prompts you to distinguish between their usage? I never said ethnicity doesn’t play a role in the distinction between Black and Brown. I just said neither of them is _an_ ethnicity. They’re larger groupings that are informed by ethnicity,culture and history. Just like White. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/208 "2023-01-02T20:13:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I have no idea what you’re saying, here. Just that you haven’t given a particularly useful definition of what you mean when you use the term “Black”. Not that anyone else has either of course. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/209 "2023-01-02T20:19:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Just that you haven’t given a particularly useful definition of what you mean when you use the term “Black”. Being _useful_ to you is as far from a concern of mine as it is possible to be. I’ll just point out that no-one has actually _asked_ me ‘How do you define “Black”?’. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/210 "2023-01-02T20:33:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll just point out that no-one has actually _asked_ me ‘How do you define “Black”?’. errr… > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So we come back to what is the definition you are using for either the capitalised “Black” or “Brown”? That seems like a very closely related question. It isn’t the exact same wording of course but surely close enough? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/211 "2023-01-02T20:33:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > ‘How do you define “Black”? Can I ask, then? I have two friends, both named Joe. I sometimes have a drink with one or the other, rarely both. They are each in their late 60s and are retired. They’re the same height, live in the same area, and are both dear friends. My gf has met both of them, just to say hello. If I come home and tell my gf I had a few drinks with Joe, she asks me which one. The only difference between them _that my gf knows_ is that one is black and one is white. So, I’ll say “black Joe” or “white Joe” because then she knows who I was talking with. I do have a tiny cringey feeling about it, though. ETA: I’ve read the whole thread and it has left me sad. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/212 "2023-01-02T20:39:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That seems like a very closely related question. Sure, but it was immediately followed by a further clarifying question, which made it seem like that was what you were actually asking, so _that_ was what I answered. You want direct answers, ask simple direct questions, don’t muddy them with your own assumptions immediately thereafter. > [@kayaker](#): > > Can I ask, then? Feel free to. What you’ve just done, isn’t actually asking. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/213 "2023-01-02T20:41:05Z")
Maybe I will someday but right now I’m too mellow to deal with any antagonism. My problem, not yours. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/214 "2023-01-02T20:41:58Z")
I’ll ask! So, MrDibble, when you use the term ‘Black’ to refer to a people what is it that you mean? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/215 "2023-01-02T20:48:56Z")
I mean “a grouping of people that includes those who have a pre-colonial origin in those human populations of Sub-Saharan Africa who aren’t KhoiSan, or Indigenous Australians, or those of the Oceania natives who choose to identify as Black rather than Brown, as well as those in their global diasporas who choose to identify as Black rather than Brown or something else” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/216 "2023-01-02T20:50:22Z")
That’s a comprehensive answer. Thank you. As an aside, there is an interesting dynamic in the Pit that does have me reconsider its utility from time to time. This is a topic that could have easily got ugly and it’s in a place where ugliness is encouraged and yet the discussion was useful. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/217 "2023-01-02T20:54:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure, but it was immediately followed by a further clarifying question, which made it seem like that was what you were actually asking, so _that_ was what I answered. You want direct answers, ask simple direct questions, don’t muddy them with your own assumptions immediately thereafter. They were two pretty simple and direct questions. You chose to address only the latter but you didn’t actually answer that question in any meaningful way either. You’ve said a lot about what the terms _aren’t_. You gave a vague response… > [@MrDibble](#): > > They’re larger groupings that are informed by ethnicity,culture and history. Just like White. Which just compares the undefined term in question (Black) to another undefined term (White). I’m dropping this now anyway. I already said that I thought it unlikely we’d find much common ground as regards the use of the term so I think the dead horse is well-flogged now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/218 "2023-01-02T21:02:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You chose to address only the latter but you didn’t actually answer that question in any meaningful way either. I answered it exactly as detailed as I thought it warranted - mostly to correct the error you had made in asking it in a leading form. Just consider it a reminder that I am not here to do all your work for you. _That_ ship went down with the Empire. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Which just compares the undefined term in question (Black) to another undefined term (White). That wasn’t a comparison. The operative part was “larger groupings informed by ethnicity, culture and history”, not “Just like White”. Do you need any of those basic terms explained, too? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m dropping this now anyway Good, since it was never a sincere effort anyway. Just another episode of the “Bobble argues with Dibble because Bobble’s a contrarian asshole to Dibble, specifically, for … reasons” show. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/219 "2023-01-02T21:05:53Z")
Dropped the end. The New Zealand dollar is not the same as the Canadian dollar, yet they are both dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/220 "2023-01-02T21:44:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The New Zealand dollar is not the same as the Canadian dollar, yet they are both dollars. Yep! That’s part of my point. If I talk about something re: the dollar (say, how much a Big Mac costs), I probably mean the US dollar, given my culture. If a Kiwi talks about the same thing, they probably mean the New Zealand dollar. If we don’t realize we’re talking about different things, we may get into a weird pointless argument. But if someone comes along and says, “There’s a US dollar and a New Zealand dollar, they’re completely different, the word is meaningless,” they’re being an idiot. Just because the word diverges in meaning doesn’t mean there’s no core meaning common to both cases. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=12)