# Why capitalize "Black"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2023, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455 "2023-01-01T09:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/161 "2023-01-02T07:09:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, the important thing is that this thread is now about you. Really? Because you’re interacting with _two_ Brown people who’re telling you you’re wrong, and have you shut the fuck up and listened to them? No, you’ve privileged your own damn self. Sounds much more like it’s about _you_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/162 "2023-01-02T07:11:17Z")
I stand with Bear. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/163 "2023-01-02T07:16:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I feel the terminology or at least the more mainstream nature of it is somewhat recent, like the last decade or two, but I couldn’t say for certain. That agrees with my experience. A cursory ngram would seem to agree there’s been an uptick, but there was also a spike in the 70s, no surprise there given the ongoing cultural shifts then: [Google Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=brown+people%2C+brown+man%2C+brown+person&year_start=1960&year_end=2010&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=3) ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/164 "2023-01-02T07:21:37Z")
I agree with your stance. I should have put just a little more thought into this thread when I started it, but I was slightly drunk. Saggy Stone was closed yesterday, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/165 "2023-01-02T07:22:18Z")
I don’t use Black or White (or Brown) as ethnic identifiers. They’re para-ethnic? supra-ethnic? Something like that. Labels for larger groups than ethnicity, race or culture, but with certain commonalities in the discourse around racism, colonialism and power imbalances. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/166 "2023-01-02T07:23:58Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I should have put just a little more thought into this thread when I started it, but I was slightly drunk. Probably, that was what I thought. I understand the impetus, believe me, I’ve heard similar from lots of my White friends. > [@scudsucker](#): > > Saggy Stone was closed yesterday, by the way. Damn. Probably is today too, then. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/167 "2023-01-02T07:31:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > For example, saying that “President Obama is a Black man” is something different than “President Obama is a black man”. One implies a membership in a culture, while the other is strictly a descriptor. Sure. I only ever use it as _akin_ to the former (but see my prior posts about Black, White and Brown not mapping to a single culture or ethnicity), not the latter, because nobody’s “black”. And very few are “white” - many of whom are Black. If I want to say someone is dark-skinned, I’ll say that, not that they’re black. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/168 "2023-01-02T07:32:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think skin color as the primary category of identification is dangerous. It’s true what they say about stopped clocks… > [@octopus](#): > > The claim that a skin color is sufficient to pigeonhole billions of people into one ethnic group? Who made this claim? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/169 "2023-01-02T07:34:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > have you shut the fuck up and listened to them That’s a bit unfair, when I acknowledged that I had learned that I could call him a _brown_ jerk. > [@MrDibble](#): > > White fragility in action. Something I’m sure I’m guilty of sometimes. But this is a rather stupid knee-jerk accusation in this context. Whether or not other people _do_ use the word “brown” (a term I _don’t_ use myself) in a certain way in a certain culture is hardly something I have any reason to be _defensive_ about, is it? The example you first gave did not convince me, because it was not inconsistent with ironic usage. Subsequent examples (including those posted by Bear) have shown otherwise, as I have acknowledged. Do you also have the self awareness to recognize that it’s theoretically possible for a non-White person to act like a gratuitously confrontational jerk? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/170 "2023-01-02T07:38:56Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > That’s a bit unfair, when I acknowledged that I had learned that I could call him a _brown_ jerk. Try it for real, and see how @Miller likes it. > [@Riemann](#): > > Do you also have the self awareness to recognize that it’s theoretically possible for a non-White person to act like a gratuitously confrontational jerk? Sure. Been there, done that. But there was absolutely fuck all “gratuitous” about @Banquet_Bear’s posts to you in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/171 "2023-01-02T07:42:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But there was absolutely fuck all “gratuitous” about @Banquet_Bear’s posts to you in this thread. Sure, and I bet you’re the most tolerant guy in the world when someone quotes you, clipping it to misrepresent what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/172 "2023-01-02T08:05:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t use Black or White (or Brown) as ethnic identifiers. They’re para-ethnic? supra-ethnic? Something like that. Labels for larger groups than ethnicity, race or culture, but with certain commonalities in the discourse around racism, colonialism and power imbalances. I think that leaves the purpose and utility of the capitalised terms as even more uncertain and vague. From your description here I don’t actually know what you would mean by them were you to use them. That’s not just a failing on your part of course, I say again that I doubt there is any possibility of agreement on how they are to be used in either form. Certainly not one that works for global discourse and probably not one that works for the population of even one country, e.g. it was said upthread. > [@steronz](#): > > Why can’t we have a term that’s specific to Americans descended from slaves? Not a term that pigeonholes them, or reduces their existance to a single facet. But a term that describes the shared experience of all Americans who suffered for generations based not on their ethnic origins, but solely by the color of their skin? Which seems to suggest that “Black” does refer or should refer to American people who are descended from slaves (correct me if I’m wrong steronz). If that is what it is intended to do then, just considering usage in the USA, you have a problem with the imprecision of the term and its exclusionary/inclusionary. Not least of which is indeed the lumping in of everyone in that country who looks a certain way into a category based on historical factors that either by choice or in practical terms may have no relevance to them or even be outright offensive. I think that if this thread shows anything of use it is that as human beings we are far better off dealing with people based on the specific circumstances of their individual experiences and character rather than as some conceptual expression of a poorly defined and imprecise identity label. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/173 "2023-01-02T09:39:23Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I think the idea that there are in fact “races” is ridiculous. I’ve never actually seen a black person. Plenty of different shades of brown, for sure, but no actual black. For that matter, I don’t know any white people either. Clowns perhaps. Maybe mimes. I’m more of a beigy pink myself. My point is that if we viewed all humans on the same continuum from light beige to dark brown we could maybe stop compartmentalizing people as black or white. We’re all on the same team, or we ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/174 "2023-01-02T09:48:10Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’ve never actually seen a black person I absolutely agree with your post, but there are people so dark brown as to be classified black. Some people from west Africa, such as Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana, and some from the DRC (Democratic Republic of Congo) - these are people I went to school with\* - are really, really dark skinned. But, yes, we are all on the same continuum. I have a friend who would under apartheid law be classified as “coloured”. Her skin is whiter than mine and she’s a freckle-faced red-head beauty. \* I went to a fairly high end school, so ambassadorial staff sent their kids there. I was only there because my mum was a teacher at the same school ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/175 "2023-01-02T10:05:07Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I absolutely agree with your post, but there are people so dark brown as to be classified black I disagree. They’re just dark brown. Very dark brown, even. But no-one is _black_. I work with Congolese, know many other people from West Africa - none of them are black. _This_ is black: [![](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/1*m-g4UwpkOnwqAlTKRSJFWg.png) ](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/1*m-g4UwpkOnwqAlTKRSJFWg.png) ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/176 "2023-01-02T10:09:38Z")
Look, I’m not trying to get into a pissing contest here. The Ghanaians were super dark brown. I’m technically “white”. But really I am a fairly uninspiring shade of tan on my arms, and pinkish on my belly which doesn’t get enough sunlight. @Biffster is right, there is a continuum There is not true white, there is no true black. There’s no yellow, no red, no real justication for the use of colour of skin for identification. Its just stupid. ETA, this thread has, as expected, gone off course, and I appreciate the people at the beginning who helped fight my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/177 "2023-01-02T10:22:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think that leaves the purpose and utility of the capitalised terms as even more uncertain and vague. Language is frequently vague and uncertain. If in doubt, people are free to ask, and I’d explain. But no-one would _actually_ be uncertain if I said “They cast Lenny Henry, Ismael Cruz Cordova and Sophia Nomvete, three Black actors, in _Rings of Power_” or if I said “An example of intersectionality could be how the gay Black experience differs from that of White gays”. Everyone would know what I meant in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/178 "2023-01-02T10:25:34Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > The Ghanaians were super dark brown. Then just say that. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/179 "2023-01-02T10:30:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Which seems to suggest that “Black” does refer or should refer to American people who are descended from slaves (correct me if I’m wrong steronz). IMHO, this is almost right, but not quite. It’s an amorphous, fuzzily-bounded culture/identifying label (and I agree with Mr. Dibble that it’s not quite the same kind of cultural identifier as, say, Navajo or Khoi-San, but is used by many to in part allude to a certain history vis-a-vis colonialism\*) that has, at its core, individuals descended from US slaves – and a history that has in large part, evolved from from that population’s experiences – but I wouldn’t use “is this individual descended from US slaves?” as an infallible litmus test for “is this individual Black?” Obama, for example, married into a Black family (of individuals largely descended from US slaves) – but he was at least somewhat Black even before this, as a biracial American living in Hawaii and getting familiar with some of Black culture – and, yes, having the Black label thrust upon him by certain others (and his choosing to usually not “correct” them with his more nuanced story.) Another interesting case is a Black child adopted and raised by White parents, in a largely White milieu. That’s a tough one! My friend’s cousin is an example. Is he Black? He certainly is perceived as such by most in the largely Black community he serves as an elected official. His parents probably occasionally said to friends that they had adopted a Black child, but I doubt his sisters (white-skinned, biological children of their parents) would say their brother was “Black.” Tricky one, that. \*This distinction is more important in South Africa than in the US. In the US, there really is something of a “Black culture” in ways there isn’t in SA, where ethnic, _in situ_ cultural designators like “Zulu” or “Khoi-San” are more salient.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455/180 "2023-01-02T10:56:11Z")
(That the “adopted by White parents” example is perplexing shows how capitalizing Black doesn’t release it (in US society at least) from associations with purely physical features, including skin tone. This is somewhat true for other, more “standard” cultural labels, too, like Navajo – but it does remind us that being Black is often something thrust upon individuals, by dint of their mere physical appearance, to a greater degree than with most other cultural descriptors). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-capitalize-black/977455.md?page=10)