# Why cops and their unions don't care about the public **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 5, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876 "2017-08-05T23:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/221 "2017-08-10T16:30:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Or, as we have already seen on too many of the videos, HAVING YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR. You don’t have to be reaching for ANYTHING. You also be on the ground on your stomach and get shot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/222 "2017-08-10T16:34:21Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > How on earth does someone _not_ know whether or not they’re a mob boss or a human trafficker or someone else who may reasonably be the target of a no-knock search warrant? Two things. Firstly, they are not the only crimes for which no-knock warrants are used, and if you think they should be your complaint is with politicians, not the police. And secondly, you don’t know what the other residents of your house are up to. The most common situation I’ve heard is where parents don’t know their child is a drug dealer. > [@](#): > > How does the door-smashing, stair-climbing, and house-searching of a cop looking for suspects and contraband differ from that of a criminal looking for women to rape and valuable to steal? Is the former accompanied by the _Dragnet_ music sting? Is the latter accompanied by Bach’s _Toccata and Fugue in D minor_? Police. Uniform. Warrant. Cops telling you what to do, not tying you up and raping your wife. They are fundamentally difference - the only real similarity is forced entry. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/223 "2017-08-10T16:37:15Z")
Steophan, is part of the issue of your comprehension the way you spell recognize? Do you not fully understand American English? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/224 "2017-08-10T16:41:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Police. Uniform. In **Steophan** -land, criminals are incapable of getting their own police uniforms. Unfortunately, in the real world, they can and sometimes do. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/225 "2017-08-10T16:46:58Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Steophan, is part of the issue of your comprehension the way you spell recognize? Do you not fully understand American English? I fully understand English, and also know how to spell it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/226 "2017-08-10T16:47:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In **Steophan** -land, criminals are incapable of getting their own police uniforms. Unfortunately, in the real world, they can and sometimes do. That doesn’t allow you to assume that anyone wearing a uniform is in fact in disguise. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/227 "2017-08-10T16:53:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That doesn’t allow you to assume that anyone wearing a uniform is in fact in disguise. It does mean that one might feel entirely reasonable fear of an imminent danger to their lives when someone breaks down the door, even if they’re wearing a police uniform. If having reasonable fear of imminent danger to their life is the standard for utilizing deadly force, then in such a circumstance the one in fear can shoot in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/228 "2017-08-10T17:11:58Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > As [noted earlier in the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20398135&postcount=125), the number of criminal home invasions ending in violence against the occupants is more than five times the number of no-knock warrants. Ergo, the odds are five-to-one in favor of the people bursting through the doors and windows being criminals rather than cops, even _before_ allowing for the obvious fact that a normal citizen has every reason to assume that only criminals have a reason to forcibly invade his home. What you replied to there was sarcasm, just incase you felt that I was actually endorsing those views. > [@Steophan](#): > > That’s your choice. If you genuinely can’t tell whether or not someone is wearing a police uniform, it would probably be best not to shoot them, as you’ve got no way of knowing if they are a threat or not. So, law abiding civilians are not allowed to defend yourself from home invasions, got it. > [@](#): > > Even the castle doctrine doesn’t allow you to shoot someone for simply being in your house without permission. Who says that they don’t have permission? Whenever I am throwing a shindig, I always tell my friends to show up in the middle of the night and bust down my door. > [@](#): > > No, you may shoot criminals who are a threat. You may not shoot cops doing their job. In the vanishingly improbable case you can’t tell the difference, make a fucking choice, decide if it’s worth the risk, and hope the jury think your actions were reasonable. Assuming you survive, at least. Well, now we are getting somewhere, at least. You have stopped insisting that people are not allowed to protect their homes and their families, but that if they are, they need to be prepared for possible legal consequences. As the cops like to say, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. > [@](#): > > Hint - it’s not reasonable to claim that you knew someone was an imminent threat but you couldn’t tell whether or not they had an extremely recognisable uniform on. It is not reasonable to assume that someone who has busted down your door and charged in was being threatening? That’s probably the stupidest thing you’ve said so far in these exchanges. (Probably, but not definitely, you’ve said some pretty stupid things.) > [@](#): > > You, unsurprisingly, have it backwards. I mind when the police do that - although in the crib incident they had the right address - and believe that appropriate compensation should be paid, and the appropriate investigations and, if necessary, punishments should take place. > > I have no problem with people (even criminals) defending themselves from an imminent threat from home invaders. Yes, you do. Stop lying about it. You want law abiding people to wait until they have verified 100% that the people in their house are criminals before they are allowed to defend themselves. Don’t all the gun advocates always talk about how you only have seconds to react to a threat? What exactly would you do? You wake up to the sound of your door being busted down. You hear feet charging up the steps. You know that they will be in your room within seconds, just enough time to get your gun. Do you really wait until they enter your room and present ID as home invaders before you get your gun? > [@](#): > > I don’t. Why do you hate law abiding cops, who are only defending themselves, _you, and your family?_ See, there is where you are having troubles here in strawmanning arguments. I have no problem whatsoever with law abiding cops, I have a problem with cops that break or bend the rules, who cut corners, who put their convenience above that of public safety. And even of those cops, I don’t hate them, I just want to see them off the force, or punished according to fair legal standards if they did things like shooting fleeing suspects or plant evidence, or rape the women who called for them. I have expressed this on several occasions. You have said specifically that law abiding civilians have no right to defend their home from invaders until they have checked ID’s. This policy of yours _will_ get them killed. Since you want law abiding civilians to be killed, you must have some sort of dislike for them. Good attempt at the whole tu quoque argument, but it falls on its face when you realize that _you_ are the only one that is advocating for innocent people to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/229 "2017-08-10T17:13:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It does mean that one might feel entirely reasonable fear of an imminent danger to their lives when someone breaks down the door, even if they’re wearing a police uniform. If having reasonable fear of imminent danger to their life is the standard for utilizing deadly force, then in such a circumstance the one in fear can shoot in self-defense. That would not be a reasonable fear. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/230 "2017-08-10T17:13:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In **Steophan** -land, criminals are incapable of getting their own police uniforms. Unfortunately, in the real world, they can and sometimes do. And, in Steophan-land, you can tell what someone is wearing when the bust down your front door from your bed. Doesn’t matter if they are wearing police uniforms or not, how do you tell what they are wearing before they have entered your room? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/231 "2017-08-10T17:15:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You have said specifically that law abiding civilians have no right to defend their home from invaders until they have checked ID’s. I’ve repeatedly said the exact opposite. Shoot home invaders. Don’t shoot cops. Stop pretending you can’t tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/232 "2017-08-10T17:28:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve repeatedly said the exact opposite. Shoot home invaders. Don’t shoot cops. Stop pretending you can’t tell the difference. I have repeatedly asked how you can tell the difference. You refuse to answer, because you know you can’t. One more time. You are in bed, and you are woken by the sound of your front door being bashed in. You hear people charging into your house, and up the steps. You have only a few seconds before they get to your door, and your daughter’s door is the next one down the hallway. (In this hypothetical, you are a law abiding citizen, with no reason to believe that the cops would have any interest in you.) Do you get your gun now, or do you wait until you can check their ID’s? You cannot answer that question, because you would have to contradict one of your strongly held principles. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/233 "2017-08-10T17:30:00Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Steophan, is part of the issue of your comprehension the way you spell recognize? Do you not fully understand American English? Evidently not, given that he apparently believes “Police” and"Uniform" to be things that can be reliably detected and distinguished from “Gang-Banger” and “Colors” by sound from another room. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/234 "2017-08-10T17:33:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That would not be a reasonable fear. It could be, depending on the circumstances. It’s not reasonable to dismiss this possibility entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/235 "2017-08-10T17:34:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have repeatedly asked how you can tell the difference. And I’ve repeatedly answered. The idea that it _needs_ answering repeatedly is absurd, though I’ll do it again. Look at them. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/236 "2017-08-10T17:39:25Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > How on earth does someone _not_ know whether or not they’re a mob boss or a human trafficker or someone else who may reasonably be the target of a no-knock search warrant? > [@Steophan](#): > > Two things. Firstly, they are not the only crimes for which no-knock warrants are used You might want to re-read that first statement. It does not purport to be an exhaustive list of cases for which no-knock warrants are justified, but covers the full gamut (“someone else who may reasonably be the target”) of legitimate cases. Thus, unless you specifically and explicitly wish to defend _il_legitimate cases, I think we’re done with this line of argument. > [@](#): > > Police. Uniform. > > Warrant. Let’s roll the tape and reiterate the scenario under discussion: > [@Steophan](#): > > If they magically teleport into your bedroom, that might happen. But you’ve heard them smashing the door, climbing the stairs, searching the rest of your house, and so on. I will stipulate that if you are actually Superman, and thus capable of discerning the identity of the intruders while they are still in some other room of your house, you can afford to wait and find out for sure just what their intentions might be. Public policy, however, is designed around the needs of ordinary citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/237 "2017-08-10T17:48:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. The laws for which one can make a case for no-knock raids as an enforcement mechanism are not abstruse “everybody breaks about three laws every day without knowing it” technical violations. They are blatant criminal enterprises such as kidnapping, racketeering, murder, and the like. I’m fairly sure that every homeowner in the land knows whether or not he is a kidnapper or a racketeer or a murderer or whatever, and thus is cognizant as to whether or not he may expect a legitimate warrant-authorized police raid upon his premises. If the answer is “not”, then it is logical to assume that the people forcing their way inside at 3AM are, in fact, a gang of hooligans. +1 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/238 "2017-08-10T18:03:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And I’ve repeatedly answered. The idea that it _needs_ answering repeatedly is absurd, though I’ll do it again. Look at them. That’s it. You have still refused to give a straight answer to the specific question of what would you do if your door was broken down, and you hear people charging up the steps to your bedroom. You claim that “look at them” is an answer, so you have to wait until they have entered your bedroom before arming yourself. Yeah, your policy is going to get innocent civilians killed. Why do you want that? There could be a disconnect here. Maybe you have superpowers that you don’t know other people have. Can you see through walls? If you are in your bed, can you see who has just broken down your front door? If not, then you really are pathetically stupid. If so, then you need to know two things. First, not everyone else can see through walls to be able to tell from another room in their house who has broken down their door. Second, you should go join the police force, as your ability to see through walls would make both their jobs and the public much safer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/239 "2017-08-10T18:13:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You have still refused to give a straight answer to the specific question of what would you do if your door was broken down, and you hear people charging up the steps to your bedroom. > > You claim that “look at them” is an answer, so you have to wait until they have entered your bedroom before arming yourself. I’m physically capable of opening my bedroom door, and also of looking out of the window to see if there’s a cop there, as are the vast majority of people. Also, I’ve never said don’t get a gun if you don’t know who’s in your house. I’ve said don’t shoot them if they’re police. That subtle difference may have eluded you, but it should be clear now. The trick is, should you do that, when they say “Police! Drop your weapon” or similar, you do so. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876/240 "2017-08-10T18:24:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, you may shoot criminals who are a threat. You may not shoot cops doing their job. In the vanishingly improbable case you can’t tell the difference, make a fucking choice, decide if it’s worth the risk, and hope the jury think your actions were reasonable. You can take being carried by six, I’ll take being judged by 12 every time. Now, about that vanishing improbable comment … > [@Steophan](#): > > Hint - it’s not reasonable to claim that you knew someone was an imminent threat but you couldn’t tell whether or not they had an extremely recognisable uniform on. Ok, let’s make one point clear. When you are sleeping, your pupils dilate, causing them to be more sensitive to bright lights. There is a condition called flash blindness that causes temporary blindness when the eye is suddenly exposed to a bright light, like say a police flashlight. Flash blindness has a greater effect and a longer duration when your pupils are dilated. So if a home invader, cop or criminal, flashes a bright light in your face, you are physically unable to see that “extremely recognisable uniform.” It’s not “vanishingly improbable,” it’s the actual science you stubborn motherfucker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-cops-and-their-unions-dont-care-about-the-public/792876.md?page=13)