# Why couldnt classic tv shows have had more black characters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 9, 2014, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846 "2014-10-09T09:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/41 "2014-10-09T16:30:15Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > So was Different Strokes and Webster the first fusion/white savior shows? Sherwood Schwartz (_Gilligan’s Island_, _The Brady Bunch_) attempted one in the early 1970s called _Kelly’s Kids_, where a white couple (the husband was Ken Berry) adopted three boys, one black, one white, one Asian. A backdoor pilot was filmed and run as an episode of _The Brady Bunch_. It didn’t get picked up, but the pilot still runs in _Brady Bunch_ reruns. One factor to consider-- albeit, the last few miscegenation laws were probably paramount, which is why 1967 was a watershed year-- in that black people in the US tended to be in lower income brackets, and that was even more true in the 1950s and early 60s when workplace discrimination was legal. That meant that even by the time probably 80% of white households owned TVs, still, very few black households did, because they were bloody expensive. The price didn’t come down until about 1966, when the solid state portables came out. That it was coincident with the Supreme Court finding miscegenation laws unconstitutional was merely, well, coincidental. But the point is, that with very, very few black homes having TVs, TV producers saw no reason to make shows aimed at an audience that didn’t exist. It didn’t occur to anyone that white people might be interested in the lives of black people, and the fact was, they probably wouldn’t have been. The first show about black people with wide appeal was a kids’ cartoon, _Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids_. I remember watching it as a kid, and liking it, and being only vaguely aware of it as a “black” show. It was funny and interesting, with plots that weren’t the usual rehash of everything I’d seen everywhere before. It was kids who grew up with that cartoon, I think, who later didn’t blink at black actors on other shows later. A lot of the material from the _Fat Albert_ show came from Bill Cosby’s stand-up act, which was popular with both black and white audiences, which is probably why the network took a chance on it. ---
**Author:** ![cormac262](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@cormac262](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cormac262)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/42 "2014-10-09T16:32:50Z")
Sticking to the OP’s period of “classic” TV (50’s era), I think you have to consider simple economics. I am no economist nor sociologist, but you have to remember that when TVs first came out, they were relatively expensive - a luxury item. Think back to late 70’s and 80’s cell phones (car phones or those bulky analog phones). Those classic shows came out at a time when not every household had a TV simply because most people couldn’t afford them. Now as then, TV producers catered to their audience (via sponsors), and they knew their audience at that time was predominately white. That is, the people who could afford to own TVs were predominately white. I don’t have statistics, but more of a “gut feel” that the discrepancy of minorities in movies during that same time did not match the same discrepancy in TV. Movies were accessible to a wider audience. I think economics definitely played into the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/43 "2014-10-09T16:34:42Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > How cute. > > Of course Hollywood was a fine place for smart Jewish immigrants & sons of immigrants to build businesses. Because anti-Semitism Back East kept them out of the elite Boys’ Club. > > However, writers & entertainers often anglicized their names to avoid offending the great unwashed. And those same genteel elites… It was more in the region of what Saki called ‘_protective mimicry_’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/44 "2014-10-09T16:39:13Z")
We’ve got to mention Star Trek here. Not just Nichelle Nichols, but in Court Martial Kirk’s boss, an admiral was black - and that was revolutionary. Even more so since it was clear this was no big deal. And in The Ultimate Computer the genius scientist was black. By the '70s black casting was not daring, it was just done by people who wanted to think of themselves as daring. Color blind casting would be more like it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/45 "2014-10-09T16:48:14Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > The article mentioned upstream (and, [here](http://jfredmacdonald.com/bawtv/bawtv10.htm)) > is interesting. Mentioning Bill Cosby in I Spy: > > > [@article](#): > > > > I Spy was the first network dramatic series to star a minority actor. > > > > When I Spy premiered, NBC officials seemed pleased that only three stations—in Savannah and Albany, Georgia, and Daytona Beach, Florida—refused to carry the show. It was seen, however, on 180 other stations covering 96 percent of the country. > > > > In an early episode, Cosby actually kissed a Japanese woman, a revolutionary act that was well beyond the historic perimeters established for blacks in television. I’d like more info on Cosby kissing a Japanese woman, especially because _Robert Culp_ kissed a Japanese woman, and it seems too easily confused. The huge tabu, when Americans say ‘interracial’ is black and (not black). Anything else is fine, and wasn’t a \*huge \*deal then. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/46 "2014-10-09T18:30:27Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Comedies tend to be set in the home, or among a small group of friends. And those settings tend to be much more, er, monochromatic. There are more multiracial families than ever, but even now, most households are going to be just one color. And while NEw York City has a lot of ethnic diversity, the ensemble cast of _**Seinfeld \*\*\* consisted almost exclusively of (white) Jews, because the reality is, guys like JErry Seinfeld and Larry David tend to hang out with other people very much like themselves. Most people do. > How would you have squeezed black actors into a typical Brady Bunch episode? Or white actors into a typical**_ Good Times \*\*\*episode? I’ll even do you one further- a big part of the schtick on “The Jeffersons” was based on the idea that they were a black couple + housekeeper in a affluent white high-rise. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/47 "2014-10-09T18:32:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > The huge tabu, when Americans say ‘interracial’ is black and (not black). Anything else is fine, and wasn’t a \*huge \*deal then. I agree; growing up in Houston, interracial marriages of white people and people of Mexican descent wasn’t really anything unusual, even when it was a white woman and Mexican man. But I can’t recall a single black/white interracial marriage among friends’ parents, even though the Mexican/White variety was common enough to not even invite remarks from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/48 "2014-10-09T18:35:57Z")
The other aspect of race on television is mixing races in a single setting. An all-black show (with the occasional pinkie) was fine. The trouble came from black and white mixing and interacting on a more or less equal footing - never mind superior black characters. This persisted until quite recently in advertising - the same spot, shot for major markets with an all-white cast, and for selected markets with an all-black cast playing the same roles. Even spots that had both did not show them interacting (e.g., two families in the park, two households, etc.) Actual brown and pink within touching distance… well into the 2000s before it was common on major products. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/49 "2014-10-09T23:24:46Z")
Moving over to CS for you. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/50 "2014-10-09T23:45:17Z")
I wouldn’t get too worked up over the black performer on _ **Lawrence Welk** _. As _ **Mad Magazine** _ would probably have noted, he was the show’s token Negro tap-dancer. I happened to be watching the night Welk himself introduced the poor guy as “A fine gentleman and a credit to his race!” (In other words, he _knew_ his _place_!) As for Kinch on _ **Hogan’s Heroes** _, it was pretty clear he was Hogan’s second-in-command. He may not have been historically accurate (there were no black aircrew serving in USAAF bombers during WWII), but he was a communications expert, and he was one helluva lot sharper than the only other American regular, Carter. Greg Morris’s race had \*nothing to do \*with the plot on _ **DvD** _?!? The whole point of the episode was to make Rob look like a complete ass for thinking his baby could have been switched at birth for another. The big moment when Rob opens the front door and there stands Greg got the loudest and longest laugh in the history of the series! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/51 "2014-10-10T00:31:13Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Another show I used to watch in B&W. > > Reminds me of the episode where Rob and Lori come home from the hospital with Little Ritchie and think perhaps their baby was mistakenly switched with another’s, so they invite the other couple over to discuss and when they walk into thier house it’s revealed they are a black, middle class couple. Classic. That was Greg Morris, too. I mentioned “Bupkiss” instead because the character of Sticks Mandelay didn’t have to be black as part of the plot. That was a big, if subtle, step forward. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/52 "2014-10-10T00:34:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’ll even do you one further- a big part of the schtick on “The Jeffersons” was based on the idea that they were a black couple + housekeeper in a affluent white high-rise. Not to mention their upstairs neighbors, Tom and Helen Willis, who were an interracial couple. George was uncomfortable with the idea of his son Lionel marrying the Willis’ daughter, Jenny, who was mixed-race. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/53 "2014-10-10T00:57:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > That was Greg Morris, too. I mentioned “Bupkiss” instead because the character of Sticks Mandelay didn’t have to be black as part of the plot. That was a big, if subtle, step forward. Aha, noted! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/54 "2014-10-10T01:16:55Z")
_The Twilight Zone_ deserves a mention. The virtually all-black cast of the episode “The Big Tall Wish” was revolutionary in 1960. Ivan Dixon, who starred in that one, also had a featured part in “I Am the Night–Color Me Black” (not racially themed, despite the title). Many other episodes had black actors in bit parts or as extras, including scenes of black and white children playing together. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/55 "2014-10-10T02:12:15Z")
Hope this isn’t a hijack but I am curious what were the earliest shows on US tv with an entirely or primarily black cast? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/56 "2014-10-10T02:23:53Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Hope this isn’t a hijack but I am curious what were the earliest shows on US tv with an entirely or primarily black cast? [Amos ‘n’ Andy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_%27n_Andy) ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/57 "2014-10-10T05:12:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > A recent commercial, for breakfast cereal I think, showed an ‘inter-racial couple’ and their ‘mixed race’ child, and caused controversy. We are still a long way from the mountain top. At a recent family gathering we were discussing current TV shows that we liked. My wife’s aunt and uncle mentioned that they really enjoyed _Downton Abbey_. We’ve never watched the show but apparently there was a plot that involved a romance between a black male and white female. My wife’s uncle said he stopped watching the show at that point and wouldn’t watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/58 "2014-10-10T05:20:27Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Rob and **Laura**. Thanks for the correction! ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/59 "2014-10-10T05:24:20Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > How would you have squeezed black actors into a typical _ **Brady Bunch** _ episode? Or white actors into a typical\*\*\* Good Times \*\*\*episode? I think it would’ve been easy: classmates or neighborhood friends or teammates, lots of ways to do that. But would America have been ready if Jan Brady had a crush on a black kid, and they kissed? I think not… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846/60 "2014-10-10T06:16:21Z")
> [@Accidental\_Martyr](#): > > At a recent family gathering we were discussing current TV shows that we liked. My wife’s aunt and uncle mentioned that they really enjoyed _Downton Abbey_. We’ve never watched the show but apparently there was a plot that involved a romance between a black male and white female. My wife’s uncle said he stopped watching the show at that point and wouldn’t watch it again. Sadly reminds me of the [kerfuffle over Midsomer Murders](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/15/all-white-midsomer-murders) a few years back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-classic-tv-shows-have-had-more-black-characters/700846.md?page=4)