# Why couldn't Frodo control the Nazgul? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693 "2004-06-29T12:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/1 "2004-06-29T12:42:43Z")
Why couldn’t Frodo control the Nazgul when he controlled the Ring? Why were they still under the power of Sauron? I think when Fro-doggy Dogg put the ring on at Hilltop (??), they should have bowed before their halfling lord, not tried to stab his punk ass. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/2 "2004-06-29T12:51:23Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Why couldn’t Frodo control the Nazgul when he controlled the Ring? Well, see, there’s the problem right there. Frodo never controlled the Ring. He may have possessed it, but he certainly did not control it. IMHO, the Ring Bearer who cam closest to actually controlling the ring was Sam, and that was shown by his ability to actually give it back to Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/3 "2004-06-29T13:04:50Z")
I expect **Qadgop** to drop in here with a better answer, but here’s the old college try. > [@](#): > > Why couldn’t Frodo control the Nazgul when he controlled the Ring? Because he didn’t know how to use the One Ring. In a conversation with Galadriel, she said to him “Before you could use that power you would need to … train your will to the domination of others.” He bore the ring, he didn’t control the ring. > [@](#): > > Why were they still under the power of Sauron? Because Sauron held the nine rings of power that had been given to the Nazgûl, and that kept them in thrall more effectively than a newbie lord of the rings could have. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/4 "2004-06-29T14:27:15Z")
What extra powers would Sauron have if he did get the ring? He already had power over the Nazgul and hoardes of dark armies. Would he just be able to become this super warrior like we saw at the opening of FOTR? He didn’t seem too invulnerable then since all you had to do is cut his finger off? Everyone was under the impression that if Sauron got the ring back it would be the end of MiddleEarth but nobody really said why. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/5 "2004-06-29T14:44:14Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > IMHO, the Ring Bearer who cam closest to actually controlling the ring was Sam, and that was shown by his ability to actually give it back to Frodo. But wasn’t that simply because he hadn’t possessed it as long as Frodo did? I thought the longer one had it, the more it took hold of them. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/6 "2004-06-29T14:46:49Z")
It’s my impression that The One Ring was actually a spiritual part of Sauron, and that to say Sauron is it’s “master” is basically inaccurate. It would be more accurate to say that it’s his better (or worse) half. And that this half has bound up within it his will to dominate. As a ring, this will has limited if subtle means of expression. The thing can’t walk back to Sauron directly, but it can make its wearer more obvious and easy to locate–the ring has a will of its own. Thus Frodo could no more master the powers in the ring than he could master Sauron himself. For Frodo to “use” the ring as a gadget to control The Nine he would need the natural strength of will to do so as well as the strength to resist Sauron’s attempts to dominate _him_. I believe it is Frodo’s natural \*lack \* of will to dominate that staves off the rings domination of him–it gets at the user by exploiting his “will to power” and Frodo, as an innocuous, unadventuresome, self-indulgent hobbit, has none. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/7 "2004-06-29T14:52:31Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > What extra powers would Sauron have if he did get the ring? He already had power over the Nazgul and hoardes of dark armies. > Would he just be able to become this super warrior like we saw at the opening of FOTR? Without The Ring, Sauron was not at his fullest power. Oh sure, he could give commands to the Nazgul and motivate creatures already of an evil nature, but remember, Sauron was a powerful spirit second in power & evil only to the demigod he once served. The ability to command The Nine, corrupt a chief wizard and control some evil creatures is pretty bad, and by itself was wreaking havoc on Middle Earth already. Give this spirit his full strength and much of the world could simply be “undone.” ---
**Author:** ![Coelacanth\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Coelacanth\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coelacanth_Soup)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/8 "2004-06-29T14:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **Inigo Montoya** - I believe it is Frodo’s natural lack of will to dominate that staves off the rings domination of him–it gets at the user by exploiting his “will to power” and Frodo, as an innocuous, unadventuresome, self-indulgent hobbit, has none. …and Sam being even more selfless could resist the power of the ring (Sauron’s Will) even more. In the book Tom Bombadil isn’t effected at all by the ring – he is the “master of nothing and nothing masters him.” Those two states of being go hand in hand in Tolkien’s ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/9 "2004-06-29T15:31:06Z")
The ring certainly has powers, vast powers, that we aren’t made aware of. I think the biggest hint we get is when Frodo tries to push the ring off on Gandalf, who gives a little speech about how strong it would make him. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/10 "2004-06-29T16:16:42Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > What extra powers would Sauron have if he did get the ring? He already had power over the Nazgul and hoardes of dark armies. > Would he just be able to become this super warrior like we saw at the opening of FOTR? He didn’t seem too invulnerable then since all you had to do is cut his finger off? > Everyone was under the impression that if Sauron got the ring back it would be the end of MiddleEarth but nobody really said why. If Sauron had gotten the Ring back, he would have been able to bend the wills of the Free Folks to his own. That would have been Bad. The beginning of the movie is a little inaccurate. In the books, Sauron had been subdued basically through a dog pile of powerful elves and men before Isildur cut the Ring off his finger. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/11 "2004-06-29T16:22:51Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > But wasn’t that simply because he hadn’t possessed it as long as Frodo did? I thought the longer one had it, the more it took hold of them. Because the Ring was so close to Mordor, it would have almost instanly corrupted anyone else who was wearing it. If you recall, while Sam was wearing the thing, it kept telling him that he could become a King, if only he said the word. Sam’s amount of control over the Ring was due to the fact that The only thing Sam wanted was his garden, and he didn’t need a Ring to make the dandelion bend to his will. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/12 "2004-06-29T17:46:16Z")
Frodo could control the Nazgul, but first he would have had to train himself to use his will for the domination of others. And of course, the more he did that, the more he would become the new Dark Lord, and the more evil he would become. Frodo DOES use the ring to control others, he uses it to control Gollum. This is a pretty trivial exercise of the ring’s power, to control such a pitiable slave of the ring. But he could have eventually learned to control other weak-willed creatures, and on up to vast armies of darkness. But if he was using the ring this way Sauron would have known, and would have been able to find him and take the ring from him before he had mastered it. Now, if Aragorn, or Gandalf, or Galadriel had taken the ring, it is possible that with their greater power and strength they would have been able to master the ring more quickly. And used it to muster the strength of the West, and to cow and frighten the Orcs and Easterlings in Sauron’s army, and defeat him. And take his place in the Dark Tower, since the experience of controlling and dominating so many would have corrupted them completely. Remember that was Sauron’s worst fear, that an entity strong enough to master the ring would get it before he could, and the idea that someone would have the ring but not use it to become master of Middle Earth was incomprehensible. Frodo (and Sam and Bilbo) were relatively uncorrupted by the ring to because they weren’t tempted to use it for its main use of domination and enslavement of others. Even Gollum was relatively uncorrupted by it, since he used it to steal and sneak and hide and kill, but not to dominate. If you wanted to rally armies and influence kings the ring would be a mighty weapon to help you do that, but you wouldn’t be the same after you did it. If you wanted to raise gardens and hide from Orcs, the ring might help you slightly, but it wouldn’t harm you nearly as much. For that you would want one of the Elven rings, since it was their purpose to preserve, nurture and protect. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/13 "2004-06-29T18:06:17Z")
Well, darn. I was about to wade into this, but **Lemur866** ’s explanation is one of the best I’ve ever read. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/14 "2004-06-29T18:12:09Z")
Tolkein discussed some of these issues in one of his letters (#246 from _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkein_). Fortunately, someone has posted much of the relevent portions online: [http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm) For example, Tolkein discusses what would have happened had Gollum not come along too destroy the ring. > [@J.R.R. Tolkein](#): > > It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant [Frodo] have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? > > Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible. > > […] > > The situation as between Frodo, with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man’s weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man’s weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown ‘servility’. They would have greeted Frodo as ‘Lord’. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur - for instance ‘to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes’. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. He also discusses what would happen in a grudge match between Gandalf-with-Ring and Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/15 "2004-06-29T18:47:31Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > What extra powers would Sauron have if he did get the ring? He already had power over the Nazgul and hoardes of dark armies. > Would he just be able to become this super warrior like we saw at the opening of FOTR? He didn’t seem too invulnerable then since all you had to do is cut his finger off? > Everyone was under the impression that if Sauron got the ring back it would be the end of MiddleEarth but nobody really said why. It doesn’t show in the movie, but in the book, Sauron was thrown down by Elendil (High King of the Numenorians in Middle Earth) and Gil-Galad (High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth), and then Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s finger. If Sauron were to take the Ring back, he would have most likely taken physical form again, and even though Aragorn is supposedly the strongest of the Numenor since Elendil, none of the elves in Middle Earth at that time could have matched the strength of Gil-Galad. Seeing as how Gandalf was strictly forbidden from intervening (he could command and boost moral, but not be a champion of the battlefield), the only thing that would have stood in the way of Sauron and world domination would have been Aragorn. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/16 "2004-06-29T18:50:50Z")
Here’s a nice little essay from FAQ of the Rings, which explains it. [FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#1-FrodoClaim) Briefly, Frodo had to claim the ring first. And that would only have been the 1st step in mastery of the ring. On Weathertop, Frodo put on the ring because he wanted to disappear, and because he was commanded to. Not because he was claiming it. So he held no power over the Nazgul there. Later, at the Cracks of Doom, he did claim the ring. Had the Nazgul arrived, they would have deferred to him; but they would still have been under the will of Sauron. At least that’s what JRRT wrote in a letter. Check out FAQ of the Rings. Many answers there to questions you didn’t even think to raise! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/17 "2004-06-29T19:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > IMHO, the Ring Bearer who cam closest to actually controlling the ring was Sam, and that was shown by his ability to actually give it back to Frodo. More to the point, he, alone among all creatures of the world, voluntarily gave up the Ring of his own accord. Bilbo gave it up, too, but only under extreme pressure and intimidation from Gandalf, and Frodo tried very hard, but still failed. True, he only had it for a short while, but he did use it, and within the very borders of Mordor, at that. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/18 "2004-06-29T19:39:25Z")
And Tom Bombadil, but I guess he’s not a “Creature of the world.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/19 "2004-06-29T19:48:55Z")
And Gandalf. He doesn’t touch it in the movie, but he does in the book. -Munch, who’s pretty anti-Sam ---
**Author:** ![shelbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693/20 "2004-06-29T19:59:30Z")
> [@Tyrrell McAllister](#): > > He also discusses what would happen in a grudge match between Gandalf-with-Ring and Sauron. Uh, please continue this hijack! (You were going to just leave us hanging!?) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-frodo-control-the-nazgul/252693.md?page=2)