# Why couldn't Iraq just be Liquidated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717 "2005-01-14T15:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/21 "2005-01-14T18:07:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Better yet we could find the balls to stick it out…since we fucked it up in the first place. Its call ‘responsibility’…we broke it, we bought into fixing it.-XT IOW, stupidity got us into this mess, stupidity will get us out!!! Yay Dubya! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/22 "2005-01-14T18:07:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The OP states that Iraq is made of up three tribes. This is way far off the mark. Iraq is made up of dozens of clans or tribes, which often compete against each other for power, status, etc. The idea that the Shiites, the Sunni, and the Kurds are the only coherent groups is an oversimplification when it comes to radical ideas like the one posited. The tribes or clans that exist within these three groupings carry powerful allegiences that prevent the groupings from acting as coherent subnational actors. Just to further expand on **Ravenman** ’s point, it is worth noting that many Iraqi tribes cut across sectarian lines. Indeed they occasionally cross _national_ lines. The immense Shammar tribe for example extends from northern Iraq right down to Yemen and the UAE and contains both Shi’a and Sunni branches. The Al Bu Nasir tribe of Saddam Hussein in Tikrit also has a Shi’a branch in Najaf ( which was quite loyal to the regime, contrary to many other Shi’a ). Just as further example of tribal/sectarian complexity: \*The rapid conversion of Iraq’s tribes to Shi’ism was by no means perfect and by the twentieth century Arab tribesmen were still divided along sectarian lines as the conversion cut across confederations and tribes. Thus, the Shurayyifat of the Muntafiq confederation became Shi’i whereas the Shuhayyim, a constituent of the Bani Humayyid section of the Muntafiq, remained partly Sunni as late as the twentieth century. The Fadagha tribe in the district of Kazimayn was split between Shi’is and Sunnis, and so were the Bani Sa’id of the Muntafiq and the Zubu’ of the Shammar, who lived in the districts of Suq al-Shuyukh and Kazimayn, respectively. Wheras the majority of the Bani Tamim became Shi’i, a few of its sections remained Sunni. Likewise, although the Zubayd confederation became almost entirely Shi’i, parts of the Bani 'Ajil and the 'Azza sections remained Sunni early in the twentieth century. The Jubur al-Wawi of the Euphrates valley became Shi’i but the Jubur of the Tigris remained Sunni, both being sections of the Zubayd as well. Still in the Zubayd, the Janabiyyin, who lived near Musayyib, remained mostly Sunni and only some of its branches became Shi’i. The Al Bu Muhammed confederation became almost entirely Shi’i except a few small branches who remained Sunni. The Muhaysin section of the Ka’b that settled along the Shatt al-'Arab chiefly below Basra was also mostly Shi’i, with the exception of parts of Bayt Ghanim, which remained Sunni. The Rabi’a confederation also became almost entirely Shi’i, save for the important Kawwam section that was to be found near both Kut al-'Amara and in the district of Kazimayn. The Shammar and Dulaym confederations were split along religiopus lines as well. The Shammar Jarba that migrated to Iraq only in the late eighteenth century and whose tribal domain was in Jezira in between the Tigris and Euphrates, remained Sunni. The Shammar Tuqa settled down near Karbala early in the eighteenth century and became Shi’i. Some of its branches frequented the Shamiyya and the Najaf districts and their tribesmen were converted to Shi’ism. Similarly, wheras most of the Dulaym confederation, whose domain was north of Baghdad remained Sunni, its Al Fatla branch settled in the Hindiyya district and became Shi’i.\* From The Shi’is of Iraq by Yitzhak Nakash ( 1994, Princeton University Press ). I’ll note that the above is a pre-contemporary study, but nonetheless many of those divisions exist down to today. The Ba’athists attempted to ,outlaw tribal identification in the 1970’s, but predictably that failed and Saddam reversed that policy, patronizing many important shaykhs. The Dulaym for example collaborated closely with the SH regime. One of the Dulaym’s principal strongholds? Fallujah. Another is Ramadi. Or we have the Sunni Shammar Jarba that by contrast with most of the Dulaym were a bit less friendly ( though not unremittingly hostile either ) to the regime. Current president Ghazi Al-Yawir is a Sunni Shammar shaykh from the Mosul area ( by the way the Shammar, sections of which were driven into Iraq by the Wahabis, have a branch married into the Saudi royal family as well - the current crown prince’s mother is a Shammar from Ha’il ). The lesson to take home is that Iraq is hideously complex with many more than just three factions and many more layers within and ties between factions. For that matter nobody has even mentioned smaller groups like the Turcoman ( with links to Turkey ) or the Assyrians. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/23 "2005-01-14T18:52:08Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Oh please? Riverbend? The Sunni who comes from a prominent family who used to be able to walk all over their compatriots because she belonged to a group which had prominence in the Baa’th Party? She whines because shes been kicked out and rightly so as well. > > Heres a detailed disemination of Riverbends blog > > [http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/](http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/) > > If you can take the time to take Riverbend as gospel, I urge you at least read this blog as a counterweight. I do. Let’s take a sample. > [@](#): > > I want to say that I think what happened in Palestine yesterday and what happened in Afghanistan before that proves that if the people really want to have elections, then they can do it and it’s another indication that we’re moving on the right track here and it’s another accomplishment for the ongoing change in the region. Really? Afghanistan is an example of how voting should go? Are these people aware of the situation in Afghanistan? 70% of the country isn’t even under the government’s control, much less registered to vote. As for the attack on Riverbend herself as “Sunni who comes from a prominent family who used to be able to walk all over their compatriots because she belonged to a group which had prominence in the Baa’th Party”… why the bloody hell would she want, as Cry Me a Riverbend II says, an Iraqi civil war? She’s a minority member of a group of people who repressed a majority, and she wants civil war. Right. As for Cry Me a Riverbend II’s evaluation of her: “Riverbend, an Iraqi in her late twenties whose family, apparently, were important muckity-mucks in Saddam’s governmen” - a cite would be nice, generally more than “apparently.” Just like any other blogger, he selectively collects what supports his viewpoint - his links to “Western Bloggers on Iraq” doesn’t even include a mention of Juan Cole, who is recognized as a leading authority. I also looked at most of the blogs he links to, but most of them (done mostly by dentists and teenage girls, strangely enough) are defunct or haven’t been updated in several months. Here’s a snippet from one of the larger ones: > [@](#): > > To do this a clear statement is needed from the US president by talking in clear words to the Iraqi people and the people of the world in a televised speech setting clear these important issues: > > 1- US acted to protect itself from what it believed was a grave danger presented by the regime of Saddam Hussein. By removing this regime from power it created a power vacuum that it felt its obligation to fix things before leaving the country. > 2- The presence of the coalition forces in Iraq is TEMPORARY and as soon as a democratic elected government with the ability to protect Iraq and enforce the law is created they will LEAVE. > 3- There is NO PLANS to put any prominent military bases in Iraq. > 4- There is NO PLANS to control Iraqi resources by American or multinational companies through long term contracts. > 5- There is NO PLANS to influence by any means the way Iraqis want to rule themselves, or the upcoming elections. Yep, I’d like to see a statement from the US President like that, too. > [@](#): > > FROM BAD TO WORSE > > It seems that we returned back to two years ago, just after Baghdad fall. we have a fuel problem for more than two months and it’s getting worse and worse, it’s affecting everything even the national electricity, which we used to have between 8-12 hours a day. now we have them only for 4 hours a day. we have 2 hours Elect. for every 10 hours off. Just like we used to had it 2 years ago. > We can’t operate the generator that long, not more than 3-4 hours and then we have to give it a rest, beside the fuel is very expensive in the black market. today we bought the 20 litter of fuel for 10000 ID while you could have the same quantity in the petrol station for 400 ID only!! but you have to be so patient that you can stand in the line for 12 hours. Yes, yes, yes, today I think for the length of the line of cars waiting in line it should take more than 12 hours to reach your turn, It’s more than 5 KM long!!! I think It should be recorded in Gennis book for the record. The operator of our local generator which works on Diesel reduced the working hours because the fuel became very expensive and the owner said it’s tripled than before (two months ago) so he operates it for only 6 hours a day. the problem is not when you stayed with or without elec. the problem is with water you can’t operate the heater on the generator it needs a lot of energy the generator could not give it. the weather is cold and the water is freezing and you have to heat the water for many purposes. many of the house work can’t be done without elect. beside how can you explain that we don’t have elec’ to a 3 years old daughter when she wants to see her favorite cartoon!!. > things are not getting bad only for feul, but also in security. last Friday two hairdresser shops for females were blown up in my street at about 9 pm. nobody was in them but they had bad damage not only to them but also the shops near them. also some male hair dresser shops were exploded in other parts of Baghdad in the past days and they said the terrorist told them that they were doing some feminine things in their shops, not only cutting hairs. now I don’t know why they exploded the female shops. maybe they want us not to cut our hair and look like men!!!. I still don’t understand how these terrorists could escape while there are two police cars standing at each end of our street?. those criminals are acting just the way they like, every one hate anyone can go and kill him or blow up his house or shop. Now I don’t trust my government what did they do to us till now? NOTHING and the terrorists seem like they are getting control of the situation very well and not getting weak at all as we heard on TV, It’s all lies. I don’t know what they have done in Falluja beside of damaging the city. > In Mosul it’s getting worse also. two days ago there was a battle near my sister’s house for four hours. my sister said that her mother in law went to bring my sister’s daughter from school which is near to their house, and on her way back home a battle started in the middle of the day, near their school. Her mother in law and my niece were so terrified they couldn’t escape and the bullets were around them, all the houses near them were closed and nobody could open the door to them. they sat near a fence, till a small man in shop which was almost closed opened a little and a man shouted to them to come to his shop. the man was inside the shop hiding when he saw them sitting and my 6 years old niece were crying. some children could escape and came to the shop and the man closed it’s door. They stayed there for 3 hours. the children were so terrified and they were all crying. my sister’s father in law could not return to his house because all the area was closed, another strange man asked him if he lives in that area and could not enter it, when he answered yes, he invited him to his house and he was strange to him and he stayed there for 3 hours where they even served him lunch. > The terrorists as my sister said escaped. she wished they were caught, they were in two cars but they ran away. > I wonder what those gangs want from us, they only hurt us and I don’t think by bombing few shops or fuel pipes the Americans would leave us, there must be something else in their minds, if they have any. > I heard that the suicide bomber who exploded himself in the American camp in Mousil was not Iraqi, he was a medical student, from Saudi Arabia, studying in the capital of Suddan. I don’t think we have Iraqis suicide bombers it’s not our way and it has never been. All the major operations were made by terrorists who came from outside the country Sounds a lot like Riverbend, actually. > [@](#): > > I got home from work, and there was a bit of a commotion. Word is that an aide to Sistani was murdered after the Maghrib prayers here in Baghdad. It was in the southern, I guess what you would call suburbs, but news of it has spread across the city quickly. I hope that this is not the straw that breaks the back of the Shias and leads them to violence. I am a bit worried though, I hear commotion that there might be some type of protest or march to show force or support for the slain aide. We havnt seen anything like this in months, I hope it doesnt turn into something bad with clashes between angry Shias and Sunnis. Definitely a resounding depiction of a nation not on the brink of civil war… [http://neurotic-iraqi-wife.blogspot.com/](http://neurotic-iraqi-wife.blogspot.com/) > [@](#): > > On another note, this famous arabic astrologer came on TV 2 days ago and said that 2005 holds great achievements for both sagittarians and pisces. Im a sagittarius and HUBBY is a pisces, Yaaaaaaaaaaay Can’t make any sense out of this one. So anyway, yes, I do suggest reading the issues from all angles. I do read them from all angles. Some of them are more accurate than others. That’s the problem with blogs- you can’t be sure if the person writing actually knows what they are talking about, or if they’re just saying what they wish. Your leading man yourself, Cry Me a Riverbend II: > [@](#): > > You know what surprises me most? Iraqi bloggers – those living in Iraq, that is – rarely (relatively) speak directly of civil war. > > … > > Should the US withdraw troops? Riverbend, Raed, and Khalid say they should. Every other Iraqi blogger I’ve read who lives in country states emphatically that a US pull-out would precipitate a civil war and that that would be a bad thing. What? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/24 "2005-01-14T18:59:11Z")
And for what it is worth, **Ryan\_Liam** , I do think that a pull out of American troops would be a bad idea. I don’t know if I agree with CMRII or not, because he is inconsistent, but I did agree with Riverbend’s analysis of the IGC and PVA. Her knowledge of Chalabi in all of this seems a lot more informed than CMRII, who generally just bitches and snipes at people. This is one of those weird situations where “the US should pull out” is an option used by both the left and the right, as well as opposed by both the left and the right. Did you know what I preferred based on my blog cite? That’s bias for you. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/25 "2005-01-14T19:38:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Oh please? Riverbend? The Sunni who comes from a prominent family who used to be able to walk all over their compatriots because she belonged to a group which had prominence in the Baa’th Party? She whines because shes been kicked out and rightly so as well. > Heres a detailed disemination of Riverbends blog > [http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/](http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/) > If you can take the time to take Riverbend as gospel, I urge you at least read this blog as a counterweight. [Here’s](http://crymeariverii.blogspot.com/2004/06/who-is-riverbend.html) an analysis of where Riverbend is coming from based on what she has told about herself in her blog (granted, she has to right to tell as little about herself as she chooses, but I have the right to infer what she has clearly left out). Her POV is definitely outside that of the average Iraqi on the street which is _“I’m glad the US removed Saddam. I wish they could leave tomorrow, but the MUST stay until the government can defend itself from insurgents and civil war, and can defend the public from criminals and terrorists.”_ That’s not a worshipful attitude toward the US, but it is a ringing endorsement compared to what Riverbend says. Among Iraq English-language bloggers the tilt is toward enthusiastic US endorsement and hostility toward their Arab neighbors that supported Saddam. Especially after you take the “blogger blocks” out of the analysis: the Anti-Invasion Jarrar family (_A Family In Baghdad_, _Raed In the Middle_, _Tell Me Secret_) and the very adamantly pro-Invasion, pro-elections Fadhil brothers (_Iraq the Model_ and _Free Iraqi_). I have no way of gaging the opinions of Arab-language Iraqi bloggers. Using these same bloggers as a reference, I would say G.W.B. would do quite well in an election for Iraqi president. He might lose, but if he were to suddenly discover an Iraqi heritage, then he would probably win hands down. Some of the Iraqi bloggers have actually said they would like to see G.W.B. run. Incidentally, the Kurdish bloggers are not applicable to all this. They are pro-Invasion, pro-elections, and mostly pro-Bush, but there is regular complaining that the US has “betrayed” them in not supporting Kirkuk becoming a “Kudish” city and not greasing the their path to their own homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/26 "2005-01-14T19:45:52Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > I have no way of gaging the opinions of Arab-language Iraqi bloggers. Well, that certainly leaves out a lot of the population. So basically, we’re only dealing with well-educated, and probably western-educated, people here? > [@](#): > > Using these same bloggers as a reference, I would say G.W.B. would do quite well in an election for Iraqi president. Well, Saddam was a good start. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, the Kurdish bloggers are not applicable to all this. They are pro-Invasion, pro-elections, and mostly pro-Bush, but there is regular complaining that the US has “betrayed” them in not supporting Kirkuk becoming a “Kudish” city and not greasing the their path to their own homeland. Well, I agree there. The Kurdish issue is another thing entirely (and possibly a more realistic danger (in general) than an Iraqi civil war). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/27 "2005-01-14T19:55:31Z")
Well for one thing, Turkey would likely not tolerate an independent Kurdish state in the north. We would not tolerate expanding Iran and Syria in the south. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/28 "2005-01-14T19:57:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > IOW, stupidity got us into this mess, stupidity will get us out!!! Yay Dubya! GW is who we have unfortunately. I might not like it, obviously you don’t like it, but its reality. I don’t see how tucking tail at this point is justified because GW is at the helm. I don’t see it as stupidity for the US to actually stay in Iraq and try and fix the mess we made. I see it as political cowardice and lack of will for the US, at this point, to even be considering running away and leaving the mess for someone else to fix…and for the Iraqi people to have to foot the bill in terms of blood and death. Perhaps you’d like to expand a bit on what YOU think should be done. Partitioning perhaps? Something else? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Train\_Song](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Black\_Train\_Song](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Black_Train_Song)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/29 "2005-01-14T20:00:29Z")
Not to hijack my own thread but just based on what I’ve read here today I’m assuming that everyone at least agrees that Iraq is an extremely complex “situation” if you will. I’m also assuming that that information was available (even to me if I cared to know bad enough) long before we did go to war. I paid relatively close attention to TV news leading up to the war and no one (media or government (openly anyway)) seemed to be concerned about what would happen in light of all this information as far as a post war scenario would look. Was the focus too heavy on making a case for war (right or wrong aside) and not enough attention paid to what would actually happen when we poked a stick into what looks to me like a hornets nest disquised as a hornets nest? Isn’t what’s happening now the rational outcome to anyone who paid close enough attention? If so, is this just a “procedural revamping” that one would expect to take place after any war? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/30 "2005-01-14T20:07:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > GW is who we have unfortunately. I might not like it, obviously you don’t like it, but its reality. I don’t see how tucking tail at this point is justified because GW is at the helm. I don’t see it as stupidity for the US to actually stay in Iraq and try and fix the mess we made. I see it as political cowardice and lack of will for the US, at this point, to even be considering running away and leaving the mess for someone else to fix…and for the Iraqi people to have to foot the bill in terms of blood and death. I agree 100% with this post. Strangely enough. I would prefer a less unilateral conclusion, and I don’t have very much faith that the elected Iraqi government will be able to support itself. Which means longer “occupation” (choose your words depending on your point of view). In fact, I think we owe Iraq a few hundred billion in restructuring, a la the oft-cited Germany, Japan, and South Korea. But less unilaterally. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/31 "2005-01-14T20:11:12Z")
> [@Rooves](#): > > Isn’t what’s happening now the rational outcome to anyone who paid close enough attention? Go back in the Straight Dope archives to when the war was first announced and started, and see who was right. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/32 "2005-01-14T20:17:11Z")
> [@Rooves](#): > > I paid relatively close attention to TV news leading up to the war and no one (media or government (openly anyway)) seemed to be concerned about what would happen in light of all this information as far as a post war scenario would look. The government didn’t care because they (in the form of the Bush Administration) wanted a war with any excuse possible. The media didn’t care because they’ve been reduced to spineless lapdogs of the corporation-coddling conservatives. There were _lots_ of people warning about the repercussions of invading Iraq, but they were all branded as “nervous nellies,” “pessimists,” and “liberals” by the war zealots. > [@Rooves](#): > > Isn’t what’s happening now the rational outcome to anyone who paid close enough attention? Yes. Unfortunately, no one in the seats of power were paying attention at the time. It’s not even certain if they’re paying attention _now…_ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/33 "2005-01-14T20:17:53Z")
I think the assumption was that Iraq was more nationalized than it was in fact. Saddam had put a light coating of ‘Iraqi Nationalism’ on top of the existing tribal structure, and enforced it with a iron fist…and it was assumed that that Nationalism and national identity went deeper than it in fact did. Basically Iraq was held together the same way Yugoslavia was…its probably a comparable model. When the strong central government was removed the ‘nation’ splintered into multiple factions along ethnic and religious lines. Thats what we are seeing now. And it might be the case that if you overturned ANY of the regional governments, the same sea of factionalization and tribalism is what you’d find. Maybe this is a good thing to know…though the price of this knowledge is too high IMO. I have no idea how much the ‘experts’ knew about this prior to the invasion. My guess is, some theorized this scenero, others didn’t…even in the Administration and at the Pentagon. But they were drowned out or marginalized by others who didn’t see it that way. And the Adminstration picked the scenerio that most appealed to how they wanted it to go. In hindsight, at least from my own perspective, its certainly a much more complex issue. Thats why I don’t see partitioning as a viable option ironically enough…because I don’t think the Iraqi’s themselves WANT to partition, or maybe more accurately wouldn’t be able to agree on HOW to partition the nation. As to the OP its to far fetched a scenerio…as I said earlier the Iraqi’s themselves wouldn’t want to be anexed by the various other neighboring states and would resist. This is assuming that the US or Europe would allow more oil rich lands to go to Syria and Iran (unlikely), or that Turkey wouldn’t have a fit with a Kurdish home land (it would probably mean war unless I miss my guess). On all sides its HIGHLY unlikely. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/34 "2005-01-14T20:29:31Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Really? Afghanistan is an example of how voting should go? Are these people aware of the situation in Afghanistan? 70% of the country isn’t even under the government’s control, much less registered to vote. That 70% includes a lot of unpopulated wasteland that no one has any intention of “controlling”. Until a highway (that is currently under construction) has been completed there is not much of a way to define the word “control” means. If you are saying 70% of the country is hostile to the central government, then that’s bunk. 70% of those eligible voted in the last election. That’s better than the US. How much of the US is “under the government’s control”? > [@](#): > > As for the attack on Riverbend herself…why the bloody hell would she want, as Cry Me a Riverbend II says, an Iraqi civil war? She’s a minority member of a group of people who repressed a majority, and she wants civil war. Right. A civil war would mean the collapse of the present government leading to a) a segregation of the country between Sunni Arab, Kurd, and Shi’a or b) a potential return of the Ba’athists (which her family most surely were). A civil war would be the best way for Riverbend to avoid having to live in a country as an equal with the tribes her family used to oppress. > [@](#): > > As for Cry Me a Riverbend II’s evaluation of her…a cite would be nice, generally more than “apparently.” I’ve given a citation in my last post. > [@](#): > > Just like any other blogger, he selectively collects what supports his viewpoint - his links to “Western Bloggers on Iraq” doesn’t even include a mention of Juan Cole, who is recognized as a leading authority. Hmmm…too bad about that. [Here’s](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2004_11_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html#110099322383201686) a link to Ali Fadhil (now posting from _Free Iraqi_) taking apart the scholarly Juan (Ferret-face) Cole on his analysis of Fallujah. [Here’s](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2004_09_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html#109613731630697467) one where he takes on Riverbend for being less than honest in her blog. > [@](#): > > I also looked at most of the blogs he links to, but most of them (done mostly by dentists and teenage girls, strangely enough) are defunct or haven’t been updated in several months. It was ME (whom you did not credit) with point out how many Iraqi English-language bloggers are dentists or dental students. I do not have time only move to the top, Iraqi bloggers that have posted most recently. But Iraq The Model, Free Iraqi, and Hammorabi post the most often – far more than precious Riverbend. Link to blogs even when they are defunct because I think their testimony is still interesting. I post to Iraqi bloggers that oppose Bush, the invasion, and elections as well…in fact, I list them FIRST. Responding to MY quote: > [@](#): > > Should the US withdraw troops? Riverbend, Raed, and Khalid say they should. Every other Iraqi blogger I’ve read who lives in country states emphatically that a US pull-out would precipitate a civil war and that that would be a bad thing. Demorian asks: > [@](#): > > What? Strange as it may seem, if you can get those who say the US should pull out immediately (like Riverbend) to answer the question “What about the civil war that would immediately envelop the country?” they will respond “It will be better than in injustice of leaving the MNF to occupy the country.” Most English-language Iraqi bloggers consider an MNF pull out now to be unthinkable because of potential for civil war. Riverbend and a few other extremists who either opine about all the good things under Saddam or say baloney like “Saddam was more of a phenomenon than a person” would rather have seen Saddam rule for the forseeable future rather than the US take him out, and they would rather see a civil war than MNF-led elections. [QUOTE] Well, that certainly leaves out a lot of the population. So basically, we’re only dealing with well-educated, and probably western-educated, people here? [QUOTE] Not western-educated (except for Riverbend) but educated enough to have studied English and figure out a computer. The English language does not seem to be as elite a skill in Iraq as you might imagine. But I can’t analyze Arabic language blogs and neither can you (I presume). I’d be very interested in a dispassionate analysis of where Arabic-language IRAQI bloggers stand. BTW just because a blogger writes in Arabic, doesn’t mean he can’t speak English. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/35 "2005-01-14T20:46:23Z")
> [@Rooves](#): > > Not to hijack my own thread but just based on what I’ve read here today I’m assuming that everyone at least agrees that Iraq is an extremely complex “situation” if you will. > I’m also assuming that that information was available (even to me if I cared to know bad enough) long before we did go to war. The Bush 41 Administration knew about the expense and complexity of establishing a democratic government in Iraq and that was why it attempted the “Hail Mary pass” of sanctions combined with (tragic as it turned out) urging of the Iraqi people to revolt. But by 1998, the Clinton Administration had decided that Saddam would never VERIFY (this is key) the destuction of his WMDs and if he did he would only restart them once the sanctions were lifted. That was why Sen. John Kerry as early as then was talking up an invasion of Iraq. After 9-11, the Bush 43 Administration seems to have become convinced that the policy of letting the Middle East “determine it’s own future” even if that determination meant universal rule by dictatorships and warlords would make the world increasingly unsafe for democracy. So they chose to bite the bullet and undertake the expense and human losses to seed the region with democracies. The fact is that it has not required as many American lives as the experts predicted. In two weeks we will have taken out two terror regimes and conducted two of the first three elections in Muslim ME nations (Palestine only recently included itself)…all this in three years and costing less than 2000 American lives. Pretty amazing, when you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/36 "2005-01-14T21:20:37Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > The government didn’t care because they (in the form of the Bush Administration) wanted a war with any excuse possible. The media didn’t care because they’ve been reduced to spineless lapdogs of the corporation-coddling conservatives. > > There were _lots_ of people warning about the repercussions of invading Iraq, but they were all branded as “nervous nellies,” “pessimists,” and “liberals” by the war zealots. > Yes. Unfortunately, no one in the seats of power were paying attention at the time. It’s not even certain if they’re paying attention _now…_ Are you serious? I think theres more of a leftist side to the News in terms of bias more than ever. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/37 "2005-01-14T21:23:08Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > A whole bunch of stuff I’ll come back to this later today, a tad busy at the moment. I’m also going to look into some of your points (primarily the challenge against Dr. Juan “weaselface” Cole and Rashid Khalidi. History is rarely black and white, and in the incidence of conflicting versions I prefer a little research. Obviously this is a very complex issue, and those involved in Iraq have a lot of emotions and prejudices (even Riverbend - and you. And me). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/38 "2005-01-14T21:29:28Z")
I read through some of your link to Ali at Iraq the Model CMAR II…intersting perspective. Normally I avoid most bloggers, but I found some of his statements differ radically from whats normally projected about Iraqi’s on this board. Of course, he could just be an isolated minority view point…which is why I usually avoid bloggers. Still, it would be interesting if someone emailed him a link to this board…it would be interesting to get some actual Iraqi’s views in the myriad Iraq thread that always pop up on this board. It would be interesting to get Riverbend on the board as well IMO for some perspective. I read through a bit of that cite as well. My guess, reading through both very different blogs though is that neither of them would want Iraq annexed by regional powers though. 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/39 "2005-01-14T21:32:25Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > The Bush 41 Administration knew about the expense and complexity of establishing a democratic government in Iraq and that was why it attempted the “Hail Mary pass” of sanctions combined with (tragic as it turned out) urging of the Iraqi people to revolt. I think you mean the Bush 41 Administration knew there was no legal reason to invade. > [@CMAR II](#): > > After 9-11, the Bush 43 Administration seems to have become convinced that the policy of letting the Middle East “determine it’s own future” even if that determination meant universal rule by dictatorships and warlords would make the world increasingly unsafe for democracy. So they chose to bite the bullet and undertake the expense and human losses to seed the region with democracies. I think you mean the Bush 43 Administration became convinced that terrorists were violently objecting to US troops in Saudi Arabia. Since pulling out of Saudi might persuade Saddam to try repeated invasion himself, it was necessary to neutralise Iraq first. So they chose to bite the bullet, invade on a WMD pretext (and take over all the oil contracts as a bonus). > [@CMAR II](#): > > The fact is that it has not required as many American lives as the experts predicted. In two weeks we will have taken out two terror regimes and conducted two of the first three elections in Muslim ME nations (Palestine only recently included itself)…all this in three years and costing less than 2000 American lives. Pretty amazing, when you think about it. I admire the way you consider US casualties and not Iraqi ones. this point of view is why the US (and Bush) is so respected. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/40 "2005-01-14T22:03:46Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I think you mean the Bush 43 Administration became convinced that terrorists were violently objecting to US troops in Saudi Arabia. Since pulling out of Saudi might persuade Saddam to try repeated invasion himself, it was necessary to neutralise Iraq first. So they chose to bite the bullet, invade on a WMD pretext (and take over all the oil contracts as a bonus). Funny, which ever one I go with (your scenario or mine), it still seems like a good idea and is in the US’s interest to invade (you didn’t turn off your electricity and sell your car yet? Why then you, glee, must be a lacky for the Saudis!) > [@](#): > > I admire the way you consider US casualties and not Iraqi ones. this point of view is why the US (and Bush) is so respected. :rolleyes: And I dislike how some critics of the Liberation fail to count Iraqi deaths by Saddam & Sons over the next 50 years if we had not taken him out. I dislike how they don’t add to that count Iraqi casualties by Saddam’s “orphans” (as they are referred to in Iraq). I dislike how instead they ascribe all those deaths to the MNF and put the bodies of the dead terrorists and those that support them on the same tally sheet with their victims. > [@](#): > > I think you mean the Bush 41 Administration knew there was no legal reason to invade. No, I didn’t mean that at all, but I put this challenge to you glee – accept it or take back the suggestion that removing Saddam was illegal: _If Saddam was removed “illegally” then he should released from jail, returned to power, and compesated with the funds and weapons necessary to put down the newly empowered opponents of his regime. If you don’t believe that, then you don’t really consider the act illegal. Pick one._ For me, I don’t see how the notion of illegality can apply to putting down a lawless regime of thugs and installing an elected representative goverment in its place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717.md?page=3)