# Why couldn't Iraq just be Liquidated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717 "2005-01-14T15:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/41 "2005-01-14T22:48:48Z")
OK, I’ve done some basic Internet searching, I’ve dug up actually very little about this “famous historian”… about the most depth in articles about him I got was this: > [@](#): > > Iraqis mentioned that I could only understand the Iraqis if I read the lectures by Dr Ali Al-Wardi, an Iraqi historian and sociologist, who died in the mid-nineties. One of the translator-editors I worked with laboriously translated his lectures and I found them fascinating. It opened a book for me and explained much of what I saw and heard. He emphasized what he called “dualism” or a form of having two personalities or “schizophrenia.” As Dr. Al-Wardi writes, the Iraqi will do something and suddenly turn around and do something else which contradicts his earlier actions. Without going into the intricacies of his argument, he saw this dualism as a result of a history of conflict between nomads and settled people. This in turn created a society of the ruled and the rulers. While the Iraqi lords it over those he can, he continually complains about the injustices of others toward him. They demand perfection in others while making excuses for themselves. “They call for certain principles they never carry out. They call for goals that they can never achieve. That is why they encourage their leaders to do miracles but when the time comes, they turn their backs giving many excuses and blaming luck" > > In an even more illuminating passage he blames much of the problems in Iraq on child raising in which a boy learns early that he must live two lives, the obedient, perfect son expected by his father, as well as the irresponsible street kid he is most of the day. His school discipline and expectations of his family run in opposition to the neighborhood values of the boys of his sectarian community, which Dr Al-Wardi says is about power and control. As a result “the Iraqi individual grows up with an extreme tendency toward sectarianism, knowing nothing about his religion.” This problem has been exacerbated by the constant wars, executions, and relocations of ethnic minorities, as well as the exodus from countryside to the cities. There are a sizable number of young men who are simply street people, without fathers or a family relationship. Many of these are drawn into various anti-coalition organizations for money or prestige. > > A third reason for the inconsistency in the Iraqi character is that they have “been cursed with the huge difference between classical Arabic and the Iraqi dialect.” As such he describes this as requiring a dualistic system of thought patterns which puts emphasis on “poetic rhymes and grammatical decoration” producing orators who are admired for “unique synonyms” instead of speaking to the ills of their society. > > … > > . It is an area populated by immensely talented and personable people, yet it is an area of corrupt governments, religion prostituted for political objectives, a miasma of dysfunctional ideological and political movements, and an intellectual class who have sold themselves for power and protection, aided and abetted by far too many Western Middle Eastern academics who have acted as facilitators and apologists for those who kill in the name of religion or grievances, some real, some invented. Dunno why they mix multi personality disorder with schizophrenia, but whatever. The other references just call him a “scholar.” None go into his politics or anything else, other than one where Saddam kidnapped one of his students who was writing a book about his book. But it seems there is some established conflict between these “Western Middle Eastern academics” and Al-Wardi. I’ll do some more research. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/42 "2005-01-14T22:54:55Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > And I dislike how some critics of the Liberation fail to count Iraqi deaths by Saddam & Sons over the next 50 years if we had not taken him out. I dislike how they don’t add to that count Iraqi casualties by Saddam’s “orphans” (as they are referred to in Iraq). I dislike how instead they ascribe all those deaths to the MNF and put the bodies of the dead terrorists and those that support them on the same tally sheet with their victims. Just curious, CMAR II, but what is your background (ethnicity, region, education, etc). I looked on your weblog, but it didn’t have much data. Not calling you into question, just want to get to know who I’m talking to and who is feeding me this news and history. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/43 "2005-01-14T23:35:07Z")
> [@curly chick](#): > > I should think the Iraqis might not be best pleased, as **Demorian** said. > > Let me ask you something - what would you think if an invading foreign power told you that your country was to be “liquidated” and all the people and assets of your country were to be absorbed by your neighbours. > What would you think? Would you argue? Well, I’m an American, so what would that look like? Most of the US would be absorbed into Canada; with Hawaii given independence; & the Southwest incorporated into Mexico; & maybe parts of the Southeast would be either independent or attached to, I dunno, the UK or South Africa or Brazil (nowhere makes much sense, really). But carving up the USA doesn’t bother me. Maybe the more apt analogy would be carving up Missouri to incorporate it into other states. The north is basically like Iowa; the south more like northern Arkansas (which is to say, not like southern Arkansas) or Tennessee or Kentucky (but would stretch those states out in an unweildy way); the western border with Kansas could be moved east 100 miles, & the Mississippi towns folded into states on the other side. It could be done, with people still in states they felt ethnic familiarity with. The Yankees would be in Yankee states, & the hicks in hick states. But we would lose, well, Missouri. We have a proud heritage, such as it is: Mark Twain, Harry Truman, “I’m from Missouri & you’ve got to show me,” etc. Losing that wouldn’t sit well. Abstract that to Iraq: There are serious concerns about changing a national border within which people once moved freely. That said, I suspect Mosul _could_ be split off from Iraq (albeit with serious difficulty) if not for Turkey’s objections to any support for a sovereign Kurdistan. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/44 "2005-01-14T23:52:57Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Just curious, CMAR II, but what is your background (ethnicity, region, education, etc). I looked on your weblog, but it didn’t have much data. Not calling you into question, just want to get to know who I’m talking to and who is feeding me this news and history. That’s a reasonable request. My refusal would also be reasonable. As I said earlier, Riverbend is welcome to tell as little of herself as she pleases, just as I am free to infer from what she says of herself and what – to me – she _obviously_ leaves out. The same is true for me and you, respectively. I don’t say anything about myself on my blog and I keep my name, location, and background a secret mostly out of principle. There was once a blog called _Cry Me A Riverbend_. The author was not careful about his identity and some thugs posted his name and address on another blog as a deliberate intimidation stunt. The original CMAR said “who needs this?” and quit. I started _Cry Me A Riverbend II_ in answer to that. I chose to keep everything about me secret for that reason. Now? I don’t know why I still keep it secret…I just do. Maybe I should rethink it. If Riverbend identifies _herself_, I definitely will identify _myself_. I will say now that I’m not a Mid East scholar like Juan Cole (ho ho), nor am I Iraqi. I’m an interested layman. I live in the U.S. and I enjoy reading Iraqi blogs. I enjoy the Soldier blogs as well, although truthfully, not as much. I enjoy history, but my main interest right now is in the contemporary testimony of the Iraqi bloggers – whichever way they lean. My only relevant expertise _per se_ is that I’ve followed Iraqi blogs a lot more closely than most people would want to and I take an interest in the opinions of experts and the well connected on Iraq. I try to follow both sides of the “Iraq Argument”, but my favorite pundits and journalists are those I agree with, naturally, but I prefer those who have come to their conclusion from a different perspective than I did (like Christopher Hitchens or George Packer) – people with whom I probably disagree about everything else in the world. My blog is a record of what I’m reading and the thoughts that occur to me as I read. I can’t respond in the comments section of every blog (even if every site had one – Riverbend and Faiza don’t). My blog relieves some of the need I feel to respond to every blogger. I just do it once there. The posts I most enjoyed writing are the “summing up” posts – posts where I take everything I’ve read over some time and lay down some conclusions. Some examples of these are my recent one on Iraqi bloggers talking about the potential for civil war, and the one about Riverbend’s identity, and the one about the strange American blogger who does “Iraqi Blogger Central”. I admit, _Cry Me A Riverbend_ is kind of an “in your face” name for a blog. I probably wouldn’t have picked it myself, but I really didn’t pick it. I only picked up the flag. I used to feel obligated to fisk everything Riverbend wrote, but I don’t anymore. Anyway, so much of what she writes is the same: “We don’t have electricity”, “Allawi is a puppet”, “The elections are a farce”, “The American forces are criminal occupiers”. I consider Riverbend a propagandist in a way I don’t for, say, Faiza at _A Family In Baghdad_. I don’t agree with Faiza but I don’t consider her posts “untrue” from her point of view. It is human to complain. But it is also human to hope. Faiza portrays both sides of that nature. Riverbend posts practically nothing of what she hopes to see after the MNF pulls out, or to happen instead of the “farce” elections. So I consider her blog to be propaganda…contrived in that sense. Based on my alternate reading, I think her viewpoint (albeit interesting to me) should be taken with a grain of salt. (But I want to know what “Saddam’s orphans” think about Iraq too.) I have explained how I think she became a propagandist (based on what she has told me in her blog). That will have to do for a bio and psychoanalysis for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/45 "2005-01-15T00:08:32Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > That will have to do for a bio and psychoanalysis for the time being. Thank you, that will suffice for now. Guess I’ll spend some time this weekend following up on your sources - not on a witch hunt, mind you, just to evaluate them - and the ones I use. I don’t follow the blog scene nearly as closely as you do, obviously, but I’ll at least listen to each one. Oddly enough, the blogs I do usually read I don’t agree with policy-wise, but I don’t think many would agree with me policy-wise on Iraq. It is somewhat counter-intuitive, but it is a philosophy I’ve developed over the past few years regarding lifestyle disparity around the world. The war was fought for all the wrong reasons it should have been fought for, it was executed absolutely horrendously, by the wrong people, and the lack of a plan has set back rebuilding Iraq for years. That I can not forgive. But, as they say, that is the situation we have to work with, and I guess I get proactive from there, instead of pulling out (with its ill effects either way). ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/46 "2005-01-15T02:41:44Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I admire the way you consider US casualties and not Iraqi ones. this point of view is why the US (and Bush) is so respected. :rolleyes: Even long before the invasion, the USA put very little value on Iraqi lives > [@](#): > > Over 500,000 children under 5 have died. In 1996, the USA Ambassador to the United Nations, Madeleine Albright was asked on an American television programme (“60 Minutes”, 12 May): “We have heard that a half a million children have died [because of sanctions against Iraq]. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And - you know - is the price worth it?” In her reply (in which the figures are not challenged) she asserts: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it.” [http://www.ellada.myby.co.uk/usa/CrimesAgainstHumannityUSA.htm](http://www.ellada.myby.co.uk/usa/CrimesAgainstHumannityUSA.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/47 "2005-01-15T03:28:40Z")
lol, that’s quite a bit more than died in Hiroshima. **CMAR II** : I went straight to the source, who replied with speed and simplicity: > [@Juan Cole](#): > > Dear \*\*\*\*\*\*: > > Ali al-Wardi was a sociologist who did not go to the British archives for primary sources. The rebelliousness of Fallujah was well known to both the British and the Iraqis, and there is poetry commemorating it throughout the 20th century. > > Frankly, I don’t have time to go to the archives and pull out the documents showing that dentists depending on secondary sources are wrong. > > cheers Juan Apparently Dr. Cole is aware of the dentists you feature and dismisses them. I’m quite willing to believe that al-Wardi did not have access to the data in those archives, which I highly doubt were forged just for this occasion. While Juan Cole is a biased source, I find that his methodology is more sound, and his data more accurate. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between Fallujah being a pivitol rebellious city and it doing nothing, but I’ll buy that it was rebellious enough to be attacked by the British. The scope and scale of the attacks may be magnified under the eyeglass of historical perspective, but it is rooted in truth, and al-Wardi had - or was - an unreliable source. I believe the 2 professors with doctorates in Near/Middle Eastern History and Culture and their first hand documentation over the scant information I can find on al-Wardi and his oral history. I have no judgements about al-Wardi’s motivations or character, but I trust the British Army’s records over second hand oral history, as any reasonably-minded person would. So, on that singular issue I hope we have some kind of settlement. That took most of the day out of me, so if you’ll excuse me, it is movie and bed time. I hope that you will find my assessment of the issue to be fair-handed, and that I am objective about the outcome (the historical event is of little to no personal value to me). I can say that I learned a lot today, and that I know more about the accuracy of certain sources, which allows me to draw sharper conclusions. I hope this has been similarly enlightening to you. Mayhap we can discuss further issues tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/48 "2005-01-15T05:40:34Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > lol, that’s quite a bit more than died in Hiroshima. > **CMAR II** : I went straight to the source, who replied with speed and simplicity: > > > [@Juan Cole](#): > > > > Dear \*\*\*\*\*\*: > > Ali al-Wardi was a sociologist who did not go to the British archives for primary sources. The rebelliousness of Fallujah was well known to both the British and the Iraqis, and there is poetry commemorating it throughout the 20th century. > > Frankly, I don’t have time to go to the archives and pull out the documents showing that **dentists** depending on secondary sources are wrong. > > cheers Juan > > Apparently Dr. Cole is aware of the dentists you feature and dismisses them. I’m quite willing to believe that al-Wardi did not have access to the data in those archives, which I highly doubt were forged just for this occasion. While Juan Cole is a biased source, I find that his methodology is more sound, and his data more accurate. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between Fallujah being a pivitol rebellious city and it doing nothing, but I’ll buy that it was rebellious enough to be attacked by the British. The scope and scale of the attacks may be magnified under the eyeglass of historical perspective, but it is rooted in truth, and al-Wardi had - or was - an unreliable source. I believe the 2 professors with doctorates in Near/Middle Eastern History and Culture and their first hand documentation over the scant information I can find on al-Wardi and his oral history. I have no judgements about al-Wardi’s motivations or character, but I trust the British Army’s records over second hand oral history, as any reasonably-minded person would. > > So, on that singular issue I hope we have some kind of settlement. That took most of the day out of me, so if you’ll excuse me, it is movie and bed time. I hope that you will find my assessment of the issue to be fair-handed, and that I am objective about the outcome (the historical event is of little to no personal value to me). I can say that I learned a lot today, and that I know more about the accuracy of certain sources, which allows me to draw sharper conclusions. I hope this has been similarly enlightening to you. > > Mayhap we can discuss further issues tomorrow. Oh Demorian, I’m aware that Dr. Fatfingers is aware of the Fadhil brothers. [Last December](http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/manipulation-of-blogging-world-on-iraq.html) he got into a bit of tangle when taking off from a _Martini Republic_ post that noted sinisterly that their “Internet Service Provider” was based in Abiline, TX (it was [Blogger.com](http://Blogger.com) - a free site used worldwide including by ME). From there he went on to innuend that the Fadhil brothers were “blog trollers”, “blog agents provocateurs secretly working for a particular group or goal and deliberately attempting to spread disinformation”. This despite the fact that the brothers give their names, are explicity about their backgrounds, and post pictures of themselves. Then he compared them unfavorably to RIVERBEND (who of course – like me – provides NO information to her exact identity). When he did this he also did something that is seen as a bit dishonest in the blogoshere: He was comparing _Baghdad Burning_ to _Iraq The Model_, but he only provided a hyperlink to _Baghdad Burning_ adding an extra hurdle for people to actually go to the brothers’ site to analyze whether what he was saying is true. When the blogs rose up and proved Coles subtle slanders to be lies, [at first](http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/opinion-polls-in-iraq-my-allegation_15.html) he pretended the firestorm was because he said the Iraq the Model blog was “far outside the norm of Iraqi public opinion”, [then](http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/iraqthemodel-on-december-12-just.html) he claimed “I did not actively make any allegations against IraqTheModel myself at all. In my own mind, I was merely drawing attention to Mailander’s entry on an informal, ‘Isn’t this interesting?’ basis.” Now I see he is using _ad hominen_ (“the dentists”) to back up his debate with the Ali Fadhil (who is actually [a medical doctor](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/about%20us.htm)). You admit that Cole is biased. Very good. The ability to assess POV will aid you a lot if you continue following blogs. But why would you say his methodology is superior to DOCTOR Ali Fadhil? He offered no documentation to back up his claim. He doesn’t even back up [Dr. Rashid Khalidi’s](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1683/) initial point regarding a _specific_ rebellion in Fallujeh to which current events are analogous. He only says _“The rebelliousness of Fallujah was well known”_. It might be fine to trust _British Army’s records over second hand oral history_ but he hasn’t identified those army records, let alone shown that they themselves were not second hand! Finally, the point of Rashid Khalidi’s article was an ACTUAL battle AT Fallujeh which Iraqis well remember and that the Bush Administration had put its foot in it by not recognizing that history. He says _“The Bush administration is not creating the world anew in the Middle East. It is waging a war in a place where history really matters.”_ Here’s some problems. Dr. Ali Fadhil says that history DOES matter to Iraqis and that one of their premier historians is **Dr. al-Wardi**. Furthermore, Dr. Khalidi does not reference any particular British Army documents. Dr. Cole is not speaking from first hand knowlege in this regard, he is only referencing Dr. Khalidi so it makes no sense to refer to _“the 2 professors with doctorates in Near/Middle Eastern History and Culture and their first hand documentation”_. There is only one and he doesn’t offer any first-hand documentation. That means Dr. Cole himself is operating from SECOND hand documentation at best, but we can’t know it’s that good. If you choose to believe Dr. Cole over Dr. Fadhil that’s your choice. But you haven’t done so because Cole has offered you any reason to trust him. For all I know al-Wardi is not a respected historian among Iraqis, but an Iraqi tells me he is. For all I know, there are reliable British Army documents that verify an actual history-turning battle waged by the British in Fallujah. But Cole has not offered those documents. **In fact, his answer is evasive.** > [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > Over 500,000 children under 5 have died. > [@Demorian](#): > > lol, that’s quite a bit more than died in Hiroshima. Hmmm…Rather than question the the veracity of these numbers as true or directly related to the sanctions, I have some other questions: Were any of these children those babies whose bodies were dug up from mass graves being clutched by their mothers? Were these children dying as the UN skimmed from the Oil-For-Food program and helped Saddam siphon trainloads of cash from it? Couldn’t these children have been saved if Saddam would have just VERIFIED that he had destroyed his WMDs?? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/49 "2005-01-15T07:03:41Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > Furthermore, Dr. Khalidi does not reference any particular British Army documents. Possible secondary reference: Air Power and Colonial Control:_The Royal air Force, 1919-1939_ by David E. Omissi ( 1990, Manchester University Press ). I’m afraid I don’t own a copy ( though I might pick it up as it looks interesting ). Toby Dodge ( from whom I snagged the above reference ) in Inventing Iraq:\* The Failure of Nation Building and a History Denied\* ( 2003, Colombia University Press ) states that: _The first large-scale deployment of air power was against the Barkat and Sufran sections of the Bani Huchaim confederation at Samawah on the Euphrates._ This was in November, 1923. _The costs for these targeted villages were heavy. Flight Lieutenant Bowen, who was sent into the area to assess the damage, conservatively estimated that that approximately 100 men, women and children had been killed, and six villages destroyed, along with six horses, 71 cows and 530 sheep. This first foray into sustained aerial assault on the population of Iraq considerably undermined the ideological promotion of air policing as being humane._ So this is a possible contradiction to Dr. Khalidi’s assertion as to the heaviness of the bombing of Fallujah. On the other hand he may have been just using a bit of hyperbole. Air power \*was used during the 1920 revolt and Dodge notes that Sir A. Haldane ( the British commander in Iraq during the revolt ) indicated that its use ( at least as a demonstreation of strength ) was one of the reasons revolt did not spread farther in the south. Dodge cites several British documents discussing its use in Kurdistan and the southern marshlands where British ground forces had difficulties operating. Now Fallujah isn’t explicitly mentioned ( he isn’t interested in cataloguing the course of the revolt in any detail ), but that doesn’t preclude that it was subject to an air raid or two. If any are interested in digging through them I can list the original British documents Dodge cites that might be applicable. But it is likely that Omissi would be a better source for such. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/50 "2005-01-15T20:51:09Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So this is a possible contradiction to Dr. Khalidi’s assertion as to the heaviness of the bombing of Fallujah. On the other hand he may have been just using a bit of hyperbole. Air power \*was used during the 1920 revolt and Dodge notes that Sir A. Haldane ( the British commander in Iraq during the revolt ) indicated that its use ( at least as a demonstreation of strength ) was one of the reasons revolt did not spread farther in the south. Dodge cites several British documents discussing its use in Kurdistan and the southern marshlands where British ground forces had difficulties operating. Now Fallujah isn’t explicitly mentioned ( he isn’t interested in cataloguing the course of the revolt in any detail ), but that doesn’t preclude that it was subject to an air raid or two. Dr. Khalidi says: > [@](#): > > "To restore Iraq to their control, the British used massive air power, bombing indiscriminately. That city is now called Fallujah. " Ali Fadhil (on authority from Dr. al-Wardi) does not deny that Fallujah was eventually part of the uprising but he denies that it was the center of it as Drs Cole and Khalidi imply. He also says it came late in the game. Your quote also seems to deny the validity the term “massive air power” per Dr. Khalidi. On balance it seems that the day belongs to “the dentists” and the Drs are Phds of “Eggonyourface” for trying to make heroes out of those nests of werwolves in Fallujah. I’m working on a full post for this. I’ll link to it when I’m done. > [@](#): > > If any are interested in digging through them I can list the original British documents Dodge cites that might be applicable. But it is likely that Omissi would be a better source for such. Go ahead and post it. Who knows whether someone is reading this who has access to the documents. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/51 "2005-01-15T21:04:47Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > Ali Fadhil (on authority from Dr. al-Wardi) does not deny that Fallujah was eventually part of the uprising but he denies that it was the center of it as Drs Cole and Khalidi imply Do they **say** , or did they **imply**? > [@](#): > > He also says it came late in the game. Your quote also seems to deny the validity the term “massive air power” per Dr. Khalidi. “Massive air power” in 1920 isn’t exactly what it is later in aviation. > [@](#): > > On balance it seems that the day belongs to “the dentists” and the Drs are Phds of “Eggonyourface” for trying to make heroes out of those nests of werwolves in Fallujah. It looks like the dentists have no primary source, and the doctors do. You seem to take a lot of what they say as “implied” and twist their words a lot - and I am beginning to see a trend in your avoidance of actual historical evidence. Basically, I question your objectivity, your sources, your data, your methodology, your terminology, and thus your arguments. Constant references to the people who actually have historical data as “Phds of Eggonyourface” supporting “the werewolves” does not make for a stronger argument in historical contexts. In addition to this, it could be said that you are cherrypicking Dr. Cole and Dr. Khalidi’s record and comments. Perhaps you should back off from this issue (which you aren’t going to get) and find other instances where Dr. Cole and Dr. Khalidi are incorrect… but please bring proof. Not having a first hand cite in a debate is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/52 "2005-01-16T00:05:09Z")
I’ll list the Dodge cites late tonight or tomorrow ( my copy is at home and I am not ). However I do have with me my copy of David Fromkin’s A Peace to End All Peace: _The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East_ ( 1989, Avon Books ). Although he doesn’t address the aerial attack issue, he does clarify the timeline of Leachman’s death and its centrality or lack thereof to the 1920 revolt. He indicates the revolt started in June, 1920, probably catalyzed by attempts to levy taxes ( the whole area had been restless for awhile and Leachman had been specifically requisitioned from London to tamp out various violent brushfires that spring with mixed success). However Leachman wasn’t killed until August, 1920. Though Fallujah isn’t mentioned by name, Fromkin does basically back Khalidi’s account: _…Leachman, who left Baghdad on 11 August to attend a meeting with tribal allies at a station on the Euphrates, was tricked into sending away his armed escort - and then was shot in the back and killed by order of the tribal sheikh who was his host…The news of Leachman’s killing led to further tribal uprisings against the British along the Euphrates. Fresh uprisings occurred north and west of Baghdad. By mid-August a group of insurgents felt confident enough to eeclare a provisional Arab government._ A book on Leachman’s life: [http://www.tomfolio.com/bookdetailssu.asp?b=9206&m=183](http://www.tomfolio.com/bookdetailssu.asp?b=9206&m=183) Apparently Leachman also has a set of papers deposited at the Middle East Centre of St. Anthony’s College at Oxford. At any rate the above would seem to contradict any assertion that Leachman’s death directly sparked the rebellion. On the other hand it does seem to have been a significant catalyst to its spread. So there you go - ammunition for both sides :). Though personally I think this is a pretty trivial argument. Though he does seem to be prone to histrionics from time to time, I haven’t seen Cole make all that many obvious factual errors and he is part of a relatively small group of academic experts on the area. Then again I am not all that regular a reader of his blog, so what do I know. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/53 "2005-01-16T03:41:23Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Do they **say** , or did they **imply**? In this case, the difference is irrelevant. They weren’t writing scholarly footnoted articles. They were writing short opinion pieces using “history” as their support. They wrote their pieces during the Fallujah operation with specific angle in mind, and they misreprepresented the facts to better fit that angle. > [@](#): > > “Massive air power” in 1920 isn’t exactly what it is later in aviation. So you are now saying any use of air power qualifies as “massive”? > [@](#): > > It looks like the dentists have no primary source, and the doctors do. Of course they do, and you are repeating Dr. Cole inaccurate _ad hominem_. Dr. Ali Fadhil is not a dentist as I already told you. He is a doctor of medicine. Dr. Fadhil’s primary source is Dr. Ali al-Wardi. Now go back to those articles [here](http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/fallujah-and-aftermath-in-baiji-on.html) and [here](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1683/). What were Khalidi and Cole’s primary source. What? That’s right. They don’t name one. Since you did not understand this when I told you before I’ll repeat it: \*\*Dr Fadhil identifies a scholarly source who actively investigated the matter to back up his version of events…Dr. Khalidi and Dr. Cole do not. \*\* For you to keep insisting they have cited sources when they have not is…well, I won’t go on. > [@](#): > > You seem to take a lot of what they say as “implied” and twist their words a lot - and I am beginning to see a trend in your avoidance of actual historical evidence. Are you drawing and inference now? Careful, you wouldn’t want to twist my words. > [@](#): > > Basically, I question your objectivity, your sources, your data, your methodology, your terminology, and thus your arguments. Dr. Cole’s lack of objectivity does not seem to bother you. I haven’t offered any sources but Cole, Khalidi, and Fadhil. > [@Dr. Cole](#): > > Most Americans do not realize that Fallujah is celebrated in Iraqi history and poetry for its defiance of the British in the Great Rebellion of 1920. Dr. Fadhil is an Iraqi and he says it ain’t so. > [@Dr. Khalidi](#): > > The British sent a renowned explorer and a senior colonial officer who had quelled unrest in the corners of their empire, Lt. Col. Gerald Leachman, to master this unruly corner of Iraq. Leachman was killed in an altercation with a local leader named Shaykh Dhari. His death sparked a war that ended up costing the lives of 10,000 Iraqis and more than 1,000 British and Indian troops. To restore Iraq to their control, the British used massive air power, bombing indiscriminately. That city is now called Fallujah. Now this is why I use the word “imply”. I’m not going to say Khalidi said something he didn’t say. And he didn’t SAY this event happened in Fallujah. But if it didn’t, then he is guilty of misleading his readers because that is the obvious implication. Furthermore, Khalidi says that this event sparked a rebellion. This does not seem to be the case. It seems that Khalidi chooses to say it did in order to draw an (UNSTATED) analogy to the contractors killed in Fallujah early last year. I’m worn out taking your by the hand. We’re not going to settle the question of Fallujah’s involvment in the 1920 uprising here. Dr. Fadhil has quoted a source that discounts the PRIMARY upshot of Dr. Khalidi’s article. His own testimony further denies Khalidi’s claim that Dr. K’s description of the events surrounding the 1920 uprising are commonly held among Iraqis. In fact, he makes the assertion that Khalidi’s version is part Saddam propagandist history. BTW [here’s](http://www.aljadid.com/features/0942saeed.html) an article about a young scholar being “disapeared” under the Saddam regime after publishing a book about Dr. al-Wardi. Why do you think he did that? Meanwhile, Dr. Cole is on record _dodging your question_. Cole offers no data to counter Dr. Fadhil even when you specifically asked him to. You don’t QUESTION my terminology, you disagree with it (lets call things what they are). > [@](#): > > Constant references to the people who actually have historical data as “Phds of Eggonyourface” supporting “the werewolves” does not make for a stronger argument in historical contexts. Constant? That’s one reference to Phds of Eggonyourface. Well, I guess, three now. > [@](#): > > In addition to this, it could be said that you are cherrypicking Dr. Cole and Dr. Khalidi’s record and comments. Perhaps you should back off from this issue (which you aren’t going to get) and find other instances where Dr. Cole and Dr. Khalidi are incorrect… but please bring proof. Not having a first hand cite in a debate is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. I already gave you an instance of Dr. Cole making unsubstantiated assertions about the Fadhil brothers which he did not retract and in a deceitful manner tried to distance himself from after it was clear he wrong. I’d say his dodging your question was part of a pattern. And I’m no longer clear whether you are being deceived by Dr. Cole or whether you have chosen to fall in with him. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/54 "2005-01-16T03:55:09Z")
> [@Rooves](#): > > Here’s the closest thing to general opinion of the war (so far)[here](http://www.bsos.umd.edu/SADAT/pub/Arab%20Attitudes%20Towards%20Political%20and%20Social%20Issues,%20Foreign%20Policy%20and%20the%20Media.htm) > by the general area The problem with the poll you cite is that it is asking Arab nations with strong autocratic and theocratic traditions to comment on something they have little or no experience with: Democratic principles. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/55 "2005-01-16T04:00:18Z")
[Here](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/1990airpow.htm) a link to the relevant quote from David E. Omissi’s _Air Power and Colonial Control: The Royal Air Force, 1919–1939_ It attempts to address the most important centers of the conflict and (after looking up the names) its seems that Fallujah is not among them. The Sufran tribe in the Diwaniyah area seem to have been the central to this rebellion and btw [they were not fans of Saddam](http://i-cias.com/e.o/diwaniyah.htm) as were the citizens of Fallujah Samawa and Rumaitha were bombed and machine gunned these are not Fallujah Basra seems to have been a problem as well (not Fallujah) There _may_ have been uprisings in Fallujah as well, but that’s hardly the point. > [@](#): > > [President Woodrow] Wilson’s skepticism about air control might have been discounted as his usual scaremongering were it not for the outbreak of a full-scale uprising in Mesopotamia in the summer of 1920. It is impossible to accept the assertion of [professor Elie] Kedourie that the rising was the product of ‘encouragement from outside’ and was important only in so far as external agitation ‘succeeded in magnifying its extent and significance’. On the contrary, the revolt shook the very foundations of British rule in Mesopotamia, and brought about major changes in political and military policy. The rising, mainly a response to British tax policy, began in Rumaitha in early July and insurrection was general along the lower Euphrates by the middle of the month. After a column composed mainly of the 2 Manchesters was almost entirely destroyed by a rebel ambush, a division of Indian reinforcements was hastily summoned to Basra, but the first of these reserves did not arrive until 7 August. The situation was at its most serious during the last week of August when the rebellion spread to the upper Euphrates and to the countryside around Baghdad: there were also the first signs of unrest in Kurdistan. At the height of their effort the tribesmen fielded about 131,000 men, of whom perhaps half were armed with modern rifles. Their leaders were drawn mainly from those groups whose power had waned under British rule: Shia mujahids, former Ottoman civil servants and ex-officers of the Turkish armies. The leading Arab patriots in Baghdad and the wealthy merchants of Basra, men with more to lose, stood aloof and awaited the event. For the British the crisis had passed by mid-September but heavy fighting went on until the end of the following month. > > Before the rebellion the squadrons of the Royal Air Force had already been active in the policing of Iraq. Lieutenant-General Aylmer Haldane praised the ‘admirable work of …the Raf under extremely arduous conditions’ after bombers had been used to suppress unrest in Kurdistan in the winter of 1919-20 and again the following spring. Aircraft also patrolled the British line of communications between Baghdad and Mosul and took punitive action against the Sufran tribe in the Diwaniyah area. But the 1920 rebellion convinced several observers that aircraft could not replace ground troops as the main imperial police force in Iraq. Haldane acknowledged that aeroplanes had proved proved of great value during the revolt for reconnaissance, close support, pursuit, rapid communication and demonstration; but he denied that aircraft alone could force the submission of tribes who were committed to rebellion. [Civil Commissiner] Arnold Wilson believed that the main the main cause of the revolt was the perceived military weakness of the imperial forces after the reduction of the garrison: ‘to kick a man when he is down is the most popular pastime in the East, sanctioned by centuries of precept and practice’. He also suggested however, that the ‘use of aeroplanes against recalcitrants’ had created deep currents of resentment which had surfaced in rebellion. In August 1920 the Times ran a leading article which claimed that the revolt had tested the methods of air control and found them wanting; and this before they had even been tried. > > Both Churchill and Trenchard tried to vast the most flattering light upon actions of the Royal Air Force. During the first week of July there were fierce fighting around Samawa and Rumaitha on the Euphrates but, Churchill told the Cabinet on 7 July, ‘our attack was successful…The enemy were bombed and machine-gunned with effect by aeroplanes which cooperated with the troops.’ During the blockade of Rumaitha, aircraft attacked rebel positions and dropped ammunition and food to the beleaguered imperial garrison. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/56 "2005-01-16T04:01:50Z")
**ET:** _The problem with the poll you cite is that it is asking Arab nations with strong autocratic and theocratic traditions to comment on something they have little or no experience with: Democratic principles._ Well, considering that these are the same nations that our Administration predicted would rapidly and willingly adopt a democratic government (in the case of Iraq), or be inspired to democracy by Iraq’s example, why shouldn’t we expect them to be able to answer a poll about democracy? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/57 "2005-01-16T04:12:20Z")
**Kimstu:** Shame on you; I know you’re smarter than to listen (and worse yet: _believe_) anything that comes out af _any_ politician’s mouth. Come to think of it, I’ve begun to wonder these past few years whether or not our own gov’t still recognizes “democratic principle(s).” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/58 "2005-01-16T04:24:12Z")
**ET:** _Shame on you; I know you’re smarter than to listen (and worse yet: believe) anything that comes out af any politician’s mouth._ Well, I do think it’s fair to hold them to the statements they’ve made. If they say that we can produce, relatively easily and quickly, a “democracy domino effect” in the Middle East, and a recent poll shows that residents of the Middle East overwhelmingly believe that our efforts in that regard are producing **less** democracy rather than more, then I think our politicians have egg on their face and some explaining to do. If, as you not unreasonably point out, the Middle East poll might be skewed by the fact that most of the respondents don’t have a lot of direct experience with democracy and hence don’t really understand it, then that undermines the claim that it should be relatively easy and quick to democratize the region. In which case, our politicians **also** have egg on their face and some explaining to do. **ET:** _Come to think of it, I’ve begun to wonder these past few years whether or not our own gov’t still recognizes “democratic principle(s).”_ Point. All the more reason to hammer away on them if their assertions turn out to be lies. IMO just about the worst thing we can do for democracy—here or anywhere else—is to become indifferent or tolerant about our politicians feeding us bullshit, especially about such crucial matters as the motives or outcomes of starting a war. ---
**Author:** ![CMAR\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@CMAR\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CMAR_II)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/59 "2005-01-17T15:15:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, I do think it’s fair to hold them to the statements they’ve made. If they say that we can produce, relatively easily and quickly, a “democracy domino effect” in the Middle East, and a recent poll shows that residents of the Middle East overwhelmingly believe that our efforts in that regard are producing **less** democracy rather than more, then I think our politicians have egg on their face and some explaining to do. If I lived in the Middle East and I received a steady stream of B.S. from my dictators and newspapers about the U.S.'s intentions…e.g. if I really had been lead to believe that Zionists really controlled U.S. foreign policy…then I would probably be skeptical about her intentions in Iraq and Afghanistan (did you forget that they also doubt our intentions there? Certain pundits began saying democracy there was doomed to failure even before November 2001!). I don’t know what Afghanistan will be like in 50 years, but its off to a good start. If a democratic Iraq fails then Afghanistan will too. If it stands then Afghanistan will will probably stand simply because the terrorists have mostly left that country and chosen to live or die for Iraq. From the start of Dubya’s interventionist policy, we will have had three democratically free elections in Muslim Mid East countries where none had occured before. Libya, an obstinant supporter of terrorism and developer of WMDs has come out from the cold. **Compared to what the opposition prophets had to say about remaking Afghanistan and Iraq, this has been a cake walk.** We shall see how long the other Muslim dictatorships keep their people under wraps by telling them that Iraq is “not really a democracy”. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717/60 "2005-01-17T19:42:04Z")
> [@CMAR II](#): > > From the start of Dubya’s interventionist policy, we will have had three democratically free elections in Muslim Mid East countries where none had occured before. Libya, an obstinant supporter of terrorism and developer of WMDs has come out from the cold. **Compared to what the opposition prophets had to say about remaking Afghanistan and Iraq, this has been a cake walk.** Well, it depends how loosely you define ‘democratic elections’ , doesn’t it? Any system of government forced upon a country by invading outsiders cannot be called ‘democratic’ IMO. The Afghan government has control of very little of the country - and there are 4 large areas of Iraq where voting will not take place this month [CNN news yesterday]. There are also a large number of Iraqis who are boycotting these so-called ‘democratic elections’ - and the USA has a say in who is allowed to run for office. Hardly democracy! As for your ‘cake walk’ comment - this is just plain offensive - given the number of people who were injured and killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. You really think things are better in these countries now than they were before Bushco. bombed them to bits? I think you’re deluding yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-iraq-just-be-liquidated/284717.md?page=4)