# Why couldn't the first atomic bomb have been dropped on empty territory? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 10, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588 "2013-11-10T18:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/101 "2013-11-12T06:41:47Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Quote: > By mid 1945, almost every major Japanese city except Hiroshima, the country’s seventh-largest city, had been obliterated by Allied bombers. Stationed there were 43,000 troops; 43,000 Koreans were also working there, mainly in forced labor. Hiroshima had been deliberately reserved by the Americans for atomic destruction. No American bomber was allowed to touch it. Choosing a target for the atomic bomb had been difficult. Part of the problem was that there was little left in Japan to be bombed. Already some 178 square miles of Japanese cities had been razed to the ground by American bombs. Twenty-two million Japanese were now homeless, almost a third of the country’s population. An estimated 900,000 Japanese had already died in the bombings, considerably more than the 780,000 combatant Japanese who had died in the Pacific battles. Because Hiroshima was the largest untouched target, that city was chosen. It was sufficiently military, with its army depot and port, to salve some consciences about the possible impact of an atomic bomb on a population of 300,000 human beings. Hiroshima also had adjacent hills that were likely to produce a focusing effect, which could considerably increase the blast damage. Thus, Hiroshima could probably produce the best “shock value.” Hiroshima’s pristine condition virtually guaranteed that the weapon’s initial use would be spectacular. Apart from Kyoto, no other city was so well preserved. The USA wanted to make the most spectacular blast in history and then publicize it to force the Japanese to surrender… Where is this cite/quote from? Not only is is polite to give sources, it’s pretty much a legal requirement. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/102 "2013-11-12T07:09:00Z")
Did you “borrow” this from William C Roberts? > **[Facts and ideas from anywhere](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1255958/)** Note that he’s hardly a noted historian, and he gives no source for that. Note that Truman considered Hiroshima a “miliary target” and wiki and other experts agree. > **[Hiroshima: The Harry Truman Diary and Papers](http://www.doug-long.com/hst.htm)** > > Harry Truman's Diary and the Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima. \*"The weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old capital or the new [Kyoto or Tokyo]. “He [Stimson] and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement [known as the Potsdam Proclamation] asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I’m sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful.”\* After hearing how many civilians died, Truman ordered no more Atomic bombs to be used on cities. I can’t find any sources that say Hiroshima was “saved” for A-bombing, per se. Yes, after the Target Committee met on May 28th, the Army was ordered to leave Hiroshima alone, but the bombing had already been going on for over a year (but the firebombing didn’t start until early 1945, just a few months before). In other words, pure luck and having lots of rivers saved Hiroshima until May 28th. No one even thought about what targets to A bomb until then. But do note the massive firebombings had only been going on for a few months by then. wiki "_Marshall asked Groves to nominate specific targets for bombing, subject to approval by himself and Stimson. Groves formed a Target Committee in April 1945 chaired by himself, that included Farrell, Major John A. Derry, Colonel William P. Fisher, Joyce C. Stearns and David M. Dennison from the USAAF; and scientists John von Neumann, Robert R. Wilson and William Penney from the Manhattan Project. The Target Committee met on April 27; at Los Alamos on May 10, where it was able to talk to the scientists and technicians there; and finally in Washington on May 28, where it was briefed by Tibbets and Commander Frederick Ashworth from Project Alberta, and the Manhattan Project’s scientific advisor, Richard C. Tolman.[61] The Target Committee nominated four targets: Kokura, the site of one of Japan’s largest munitions plants; Hiroshima, an embarkation port and industrial center that was the site of a major military headquarters; Niigata, a port with industrial facilities including steel and aluminium plants and an oil refinery; and Kyoto, a major industrial center. The target selection was subject to the following criteria: The target was larger than 3 mi (4.8 km) in diameter and was an important target in a large urban area. The blast would create effective damage. The target was unlikely to be attacked by August 1945. “Any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb.”[62] These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as “an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target.”[62]"_ ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/103 "2013-11-12T14:02:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …"He [Stimson] and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement [known as the Potsdam Proclamation] asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I’m sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. > > **It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb.** > > It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful." (shortened for clarity) Interesting find. Thanks for posting it. “It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb.” This is a very important point that is often overlooked by the “blame the U.S. first” crowd. Can there be any doubt that Hitler or Stalin or Imperial Japan would have used atomic bombs (or dirty bombs) to rule the world? The U.S. used two atomic bombs to end a world war that had resulted in so many deaths that the best estimates place the total between 60 and 80 MILLION people. So many people died that exact numbers are impossible to determine but “give or take 20 million” is a big gap. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/104 "2013-11-12T14:58:56Z")
Hitler, or rather his scientists, had not only discovered how to make a bomb, they were busy working on building a reactor to make the material for one. Or to just spread core material over England as a weapon of mass destruction. The US and the British prevented this from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/105 "2013-11-12T15:35:31Z")
Both the Germans and the Japanese had the necessary materials to make “dirty bombs”. And the Abwehr knew about the American’s atomic bombs because they had agents with access to the Russians’ information on the US atomic efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/106 "2013-11-12T15:44:18Z")
Read all about the [Norwegian Heavy Water Sabotage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage)! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/107 "2013-11-12T16:34:52Z")
To make my self clear. Colibri has it right ,Tokyobayer has put the cart before the horse. Dues to a few factors, mainly that is wasn’t suited for firebombing, Hiroshima hadn’t been heavily hit. Thus, it was targeted for the A bomb (also as it was considered a “military target”). _After_ they picked it for a target, yes, it was 'reserved". ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/108 "2013-11-12T17:00:29Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Hitler, or rather his scientists, had not only discovered how to make a bomb, they were busy working on building a reactor to make the material for one. Or to just spread core material over England as a weapon of mass destruction. > > The US and the British prevented this from happening. That episode of _Hogan’s Heroes_ was awesome. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/109 "2013-11-12T19:01:33Z")
I still laugh because the German scientists didn’t realize you could build a reactor with regular water as a moderator. Or use graphite. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588/110 "2013-11-13T15:55:52Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I get it, we all flunk the fine points of wartime Japanese thought. Now put away the sledgehammer, Thorkyo. Yeah. Sorry about that. That’s what I get for posting when I’m seriously pissed off about something else. It is strange, though. It seems to me that far more people have nuanced views of the European war, but then fall into cliches about the Pacific war. Or maybe I just notice them more. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Where is this cite/quote from? Not only is is polite to give sources, it’s pretty much a legal requirement. Shaking in my boots here! Please don’t tell on me. Pretty, pretty, pretty please! Or, better yet! Tell them that although I had carefully shown it was a quote, I overlooked getting the cite on it. I’m sure that their lawyer are going to come after me in full force! If you can get their attorneys to write up a letter, have them send it to me in the email account under my user name. I’ll be waiting for it. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Did you “borrow” this from William C Roberts? Scare quotation marks? Accusations of plagiarism? Fun stuff! You’re a smart person, right? You can do better than this, I know. Try again! > [@](#): > > Note that Truman considered Hiroshima a “miliary target” and wiki and other experts agree. > [Hiroshima: The Harry Truman Diary and Papers](http://www.doug-long.com/hst.htm) > > \*"The weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old capital or the new [Kyoto or Tokyo]. > > “He [Stimson] and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement [known as the Potsdam Proclamation] asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I’m sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful.”\* In my opinion (and note the forum we are in) that is self-serving bullshit. You don’t drop it in the middle of a city and say that it’s not intended to be targeted on women and children. > [@](#): > > I can’t find any sources that say Hiroshima was “saved” for A-bombing, per se. Yes, after the Target Committee met on May 28th, the Army was ordered to leave Hiroshima alone, but the bombing had already been going on for over a year (but the firebombing didn’t start until early 1945, just a few months before). In other words, pure luck and having lots of rivers saved Hiroshima until May 28th. No one even thought about what targets to A bomb until then. But do note the massive firebombings had only been going on for a few months by then. I never claimed that Hiroshima had been saved before the targeting meeting. It was saved after that date. [Here](http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=217)are a list of cities which had been bomber by the end of May from the time of the initial attack on Tokyo. > [@](#): > > 24 Feb 1945 During the night of 24-25 Feb, 174 American B-29 bombers dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, Japan and destroyed about 3 square kilometer of the city, or about 28,000 buildings. > 4 Mar 1945 159 American B-29 bombers attacked the urban areas of Tokyo, Japan. > 9 Mar 1945 Operation Meetinghouse: After sundown and into the early hours of 10 Mar, 279 American B-29 bombers dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, Japan and destroyed 267,000 buildings and homes or 41 square kilometers of the city. Americans estimated 88,000 killed, 41,000 injured, and 1,000,000 displaced. Tokyo Fire Department estimated 97,000 killed and 125,000 wounded. Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department estimated 124,711 casualties and 286,358 destroyed buildings and homes. > 11 Mar 1945 285 American B-29 bombers attacked the Nagoya, Japan urban area with incendiary bombs. > 13 Mar 1945 274 US aircraft bombed and destroyed 8.1 square miles of Osaka, Japan. > 16 Mar 1945 307 US B-29 bombers devastated a 3-square mile area in Kobe, Japan and caused 15,000 in casualties. > 17 Mar 1945 331 US B-29 bombers destroyed 7 square kilometers of Kobe, Japan; 8,841 were killed and 650,000 were displaced. The US attack also heavily damaged submarine I-15, which was under-construction at Kobe, nearly completed. > 19 Mar 1945 In Japan, aircraft of US Navy TF 58 attacked targets on Kyushu and Honshu (Kure, Osaka, and Kobe), destroying submarine I-205 (still under construction) and damaging many warships. > 2 Apr 1945 In Japan, 100 American B-29 bombers conducted a raid on the Nakajima aircraft factory near Tokyo, while 15 B-29 bombers mined waters off Kure and Hiroshima. > 3 Apr 1945 68 American B-29 bombers attacked the Koizuimi aircraft factory and the urban areas of Tokyo, Japan. > 7 Apr 1945 101 American B-29 bombers attacked the Nakajima aircraft factory near Tokyo, Japan; this was the first B-29 mission to be escorted by P-51 fighters from Iwo Jima. > 26 Apr 1945 In Japan, 464 American B-29 bombers attacked the urban areas of Tokyo, Japan south of the Imperial Palace. > 5 May 1945 The Hiro Naval Arsenal in Kure, Japan was destroyed by US B-29 Superfortress bombers. > 11 May 1945 92 American B-29 bombers attacked the Kawanishi aircraft factories near Kobe, Japan. > 14 May 1945 472 American B-29 bombers conducted a raid on Nagoya, Japan as part of the first of two days of saturation bombing on Japanese cities. The Americans would drop 16,000 tons of napalm and oil bombs during the campaign; vast areas were burned out but 77 B-29 bombers failed to return. > 17 May 1945 470 American B-29 bombers conducted a raid on Nagoya, Japan. > 19 May 1945 272 B-29 Superfortress bombers struck Hamamatsu, Japan. > 23 May 1945 525 American B-29 bombers conducted a raid on Tokyo, Japan. > 24 May 1945 Aircraft of US Navy Task Force 58 attacked airfields in southern Kyushu, Japan while 520 US Army B-29 bombers attacked urban and industrial areas south of the Imperial Palace in Tokyo. > 25 May 1945 464 American B-29 bombers conducted a raid on Tokyo, Japan. 26 aircraft were lost, which was the highest one-day loss. > 29 May 1945 American B-25 bombers from Okinawa conducted a raid on Tokyo, Japan, while 454 B-29 bombers (escorted by 101 P-51 fighters) firebombed Yokohama, Japan. Note the number of cities firebombed. Five. However, [note the](http://www.ditext.com/japan/napalm.html)number of cities attacked by August. [quote] Name of Japanese city firebombed, percentage of the city destroyed and equivalent in size to the following US city. Yokohama 58 Cleveland Tokyo 51 New York Toyama 99 Chattanooga Nagoya 40 Los Angeles Osaka 35.1 Chicago Nishinomiya 11.9 Cambridge Siumonoseki 37.6 San Diego Kure 41.9 Toledo Kobe 55.7 Baltimore Omuta 35.8 Miami Wakayama 50 Salt Lake City Kawasaki 36.2 Portland Okayama 68.9 Long Beach Yawata 21.2 San Antonio Kagoshima 63.4 Richmond Amagasaki 18.9 Jacksonville Sasebo 41.4 Nashville Moh 23.3 Spokane Miyakonoio 26.5 Greensboro Nobeoka 25.2 Augusta Miyazaki 26.1 Davenport Hbe 20.7 Utica Saga 44.2 Waterloo Imabari 63.9 Stockton Matsuyama 64 Duluth Fukui 86 Evansville Tokushima 85.2 Ft. Wayne Sakai 48.2 Forth Worth Hachioji 65 Galveston Kumamoto 31.2 Grand Rapids Isezaki 56.7 Sioux Falls Takamatsu 67.5 Knoxville Akashi 50.2 Lexington Fukuyama 80.9 Macon Aomori 30 Montgomery Okazaki 32.2 Lincoln Oita 28.2 Saint Joseph Hiratsuka 48.4 Battle Creek Tokuyama 48.3 Butte Yokkichi 33.6 Charlotte Uhyamada 41.3 Columbus Ogaki 39.5 Corpus Christi Gifu 63.6 Des Moines Shizuoka 66.1 Oklahoma City Himeji 49.4 Peoria Fukuoka 24.1 Rochester Kochi 55.2 Sacramento Shimizu 42 San Jose Omura 33.1 Sante Fe Chiba 41 Savannah Ichinomiya 56.3 Sprinfield Nara 69.3 Boston Tsu 69.3 Topeka Kuwana 75 Tucson Toyohashi 61.9 Tulsa Numazu 42.3 Waco Chosi 44.2 Wheeling Kofu 78.6 South Bend Utsunomiya 43.7 Sioux City Mito 68.9 Pontiac Sendai 21.9 Omaha Tsuruga 65.1 Middleton Nagaoka 64.9 Madison Hitachi 72 Little Rock Kumagaya 55.1 Kenosha Hamamatsu 60.3 Hartford Maebashi 64.2 Wheeling > [@you](#): > > These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as “an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target.”[62]"\* However, by August, it would have been attacked. They were hitting far smaller cities and more minor targets by that point. > [@DrDeth](#): > > To make my self clear. Colibri has it right ,Tokyobayer has put the cart before the horse. Dues to a few factors, mainly that is wasn’t suited for firebombing, Hiroshima hadn’t been heavily hit. Thus, it was targeted for the A bomb (also as it was considered a “military target”). _After_ they picked it for a target, yes, it was 'reserved". Yup it was reserved after it was picked as a target. Coliri was wrong in his statement that it had not been targeted because of limitations of flight distance. That is completely erroneous, as I pointed out above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-the-first-atomic-bomb-have-been-dropped-on-empty-territory/673588.md?page=5)