why criticise people for poor spelling/grammar

The BBQ Pit
61

May I add my two cents?

The only way we have to get to know people on this message board is by what they write and how they write it. We don’t have cues supplied by clothing, inflection, or body language, only simple text. In many ways, that’s an advantage. You know only as much about a person’s age, sex, race, and other aspects of personal appearance as he or she chooses to reveal. I’ve been surprised to learn how young some of our more articulate, wise people are. (Zev Steinhart is a particularly good example of this.)

On the other hand, when people come here who expresses their thoughts incoherently using poor grammar, it’s difficult to form a good impression of them, especially if they persist after they’ve been told about this. I’m a translator. I know how difficult it can be to communicate in a foreign language. I also know that people around here do go easier on people whose native language isn’t English. On the other hand, when we see something like “So slow and so many rude ppl most interest in spelling. Bye turd.” from this closed thread (that’s the entire OP, by the way), to me, it’s the equivalent of wearing ripped jeans and a t-shirt with profanity on it to a formal cocktail party. It’s a slap in the face to those of us quietly enjoying good conversation. I’m not saying there isn’t a place for it; I’m saying this particular message board isn’t the place for it, just as it’s no place for jerks or people who enjoy insulting others.

Let me give you an analogy. An acquaintance of mine is married to a math professor. She’s told me about some colleagues of her husband’s who are undeniably brilliant mathematicians, but somewhat less than socially adept. These gentlemen have been known to try to have a meal in top restaurants and been confused when they’re refused admittance. After all, they’re brilliant mathematicians who are emminently respectable. Why on earth would they be denied admittance when they can clearly afford the meal? The answer is that, while they may know they’re brilliant mathematicians, they’re trying to have dinner at a restaurant which require that gentlemen wear suits and ties, but they’re dressed in jeans and sweatshirts. Is it unfair? You could argue either side of the question, or at least I could. On the other hand, in fairness to the restaurant, they’re choosing not to conform to the standard the restaurant’s owner has chosen to set.

I waste far too many hours here because I like the way people discuss interesting topics in an intelligent and articulate fashion. Insisting that people here conform to or at least accept the standards set by smartguysmile is a bit like insisting a rock and roll venue play classical music or a baroque choir sing rap.

CJ

62

Never mind criticizing the spelling and grammar; do you realize how much your writing skills improve by participating here, and making a conscious effort to put your best foot forward? Not only do I attempt to spell and use words correctly, but I also make an effort to not use abbreviations (like IIRC), not use the same uncommon word twice in a paragraph, put the emphasis of my sentences towards the end where they are the most effective, and generally ensure readability and flow. This has been a fabulous learning tool for me - I don’t think my writing skills have ever been stronger.

63

And, featherlou --not only do I agree with your point, this place (and my other bb) has forced me to construct my arguments based on reason and logic (not Logic). So many times I want to post a scree about X or Y, and see another poster has–and I have seen that poster flamed for hyperbole and faulty reasoning.

It has helped no end in my presenting my “side” to others, here and in RL. Reading other intelligent posts forces me to think about the point I want to make–it has stripped away alot of the “drama” around heated issues for me. Thank you all.

I type fast and inaccurately, and almost always invert letters because of it. I do try to correct as I go, but ahve slips in instead of have.

As for grammatical mistakes–we all make them. But to see illiteracy so rampant–it saddens me, even sickens me. How are we to progress, if the bulk of America cannot construct a simple sentence? :eek:

I think it’s ignorance and laziness and arrogance, too–lethal mixture.

64

Siege,

You have helped me make my point: which would you rather me do, respond point by point to your rather well thought out statement, or spend time pointing out the grammatical errors in this particular statement you made:

then continue to “bash” you on "your apparent ignorance of the Chicago manual of style by going through the rest of your post letter by letter? " (that was an example by the way, I by no means am an expert on the finer points of the Chicago manual of style, or any other rule of speech, as is likely evident in my prose)

IMHO of course, I think that approach is more akin to bringing “crap” to a party or having poor hygene.

I realize, of course, that if your entire life revolves around Grammar and Spelling, as in the case of an English teacher, you may be prone to judge. I am a “computer expert” and I fight the temptation to criticize the luddites that surround me on a daily basis, because to put someone down for NOT being an expert in my field is rude…correct?

The point is, its one thing to correct a person, its another to make them feel small for it. If your intent is to correct the behaviour, kindness is the best delivery mechanism.

And for you Shylocks out there (myself included), here is the result of a quick spell check on all the posts so far (incorrect followed by correct):

mrrealtime: criticise - criticize

Kiminy: Personnage - Personage

ITR champion: explicity - explicitly

furt: hygiene - hygeine - hygiene AND hygenically challeneged - hygienically challenged

Sleel: misspeller ?

vivalostwages: spellchecking - spell checking (occurs twice) and runons - runon’s

Siege: emminently - eminently

Sierra Indigo: utterly ironic statement: lazy Uni students’ ? Could not take the effort to write “University” ?

eleanorigby: alot - a lot

in the interest of self improvement, of course :slight_smile:

65

oooh and I forgot sturmhauke’s “ungrammatical crap”… one thing is certain, you won’t be lacking any “irony” in your diet today.
:wink:

66

Excuse me. I’m a programmer and former translator. While I am English, and I have been known to teach, I do not teach English. I also did not bash smartguysmile in the sense that I intended to insult him. I used a post in which he insulted the membership of this message board to give an example of the sort of thing which, while it might be appropriate elsewhere on the internet, doesn’t really suit this board.

As for my misspelling, I’m surprised you found only one.
Respectfully, still,
CJ

67

Siege,
Who is to judge then where to draw the line as to who may and who may not participate? Id imagine the line is somewhere between people like smartguy and people who misspell “eminently” but Id hate to be the judge. The fact that smartguy’s posts were not all deleted shows that the hosts of this board would draw the line based on factors much more serious than grammar or spelling. What is at stake here isnt whether or not having good grammar is a good thing, rather making a certain level of grammar skills dictate your worthiness to speak. Simply put, people with poor grammar and spelling have good things to say.

68

That’s a fair statement.

But imagine if you were in a tech support discussion group. All around you are people from all walks of life, some of whom know more than you about computers, some of whom know next to nothing. Wouldn’t you get a little disheartened working with the people who know next to nothing and refuse to learn, even when they’re in a situation where they are expected to know?

Is it unkind to find fault in a person who wears a ratty T-shirt to a black-tie dinner?

Every community and situation, online and offline, has social conventions. They can be very confusing as they change from place to place, game to game, state to state, region to region, nation to nation. What is considered appropriate in an IRC chatroom is not necessarily considered appropriate on the SDMB, or for that matter in a graded essay for a college class. My grandmother used to type in all caps because it was easier for her; she learned netiquette even though she spends 0.1% of her time online (and that on eBay) because she didn’t want to seem boorish and impolite.

Internet etiquette and social conventions can and have been the subject of sociology theses, but they can in this case be boiled down to a simple statement: my house, my rules. We here at the SDMB tend to be pretty reasonable: at most people will usually get light teasing if they step outside of local conventions. More often it’s just a gentle nudge: you will get more respect, we say, if you capitalize and punctuate and spell properly and don’t post your replies in vibrant neon green.

It’s only when people continually and flagrantly and unapologetically continue to flout the Way Things Are Done that people get nasty, and that’s usually only in the Pit. And in the Pit, we’re all subject to criticism. Gotta learn to expect it and either roll with the punches or stop doing things that make folk want to hit you.

I’m pretty darn certain if our friend had said “sorry my english not so good” or “i not use 2 ritin lik u i wil try” people wouldn’t have kept mocking him.

ON THE OTHER HAND… I think people really were needlessly nasty on occasion. That’s just my opinion. I can’t blame people for feeling that smartguysmile was acting inappropriately, but wouldn’t it be nice if everyone was nice? :wink:

I have a marvelous friend on a MUSH – an online text-based RPG – who is one of the best writers and roleplayers I’ve yet met. His spelling is ATROCIOUS, whether due to dyslexia or laziness or bad typing or whatever else. Occasionally, if a person has truly interesting things to say, that will shine through poor spelling.

Additionally, programmers are some of the worst offenders of bad spelling/punctuation/grammar that I’ve ever seen. Yet they look down at us English freaks. Hee hee. I think it might have something to do with using letters and numbers and symbols not as words but as signifiers, kind of like looking at bricks all the time and being unable to build a building.

We don’t tend to make fun of people for the occasional typo or misspelling unless they’re really funny and appropriate/inappropriate. Perpetual screw-ups are a different matter. I didn’t read all of your typo-snaggings (DO you have something better to do with your time than run ~100 posts through a spellcheck? I know I do) but at least one of them was a British spelling and therefore not technically incorrect.

Just in the interests of fighting ignorance, I promise.

Incidentally, why are we/they Shylocks? I don’t think any of us have asked for a pound of flesh, asked about pricks and bleeding (in this post), or are charging you interest. :wink:

69

And Ste. Gaudere raises her fiery sword… :slight_smile:

I have always felt that typographical and/or grammatical errors should be judged in context. I find that proofreading on the screen can be difficult, and is made all the more difficult for those who try to post quickly while at work. Minor typos are par for the course on a message board. Having very little fluency in any foreign language, I am also willing to give enormous latitude to those whose first language is not English. In addition, I accept (and use) certain colloqualisms for effect on this board, mostly to mimic common speech patterns, although they would not be accepted in a technical or business document.

In short, if the poster truly makes an effort to be understood, and expresses good will (or at least no ill will), I believe in letting it slide. Or, at most, indulging in gentle teasing (see my first sentence).

If a poster is clearly acting like a jerk, or is condescending to others, or is intolerant of common courtesies, then it’s open season.

Gee, a thread about grammar. Who would have thought that this would be controversial? :smiley:

70

Thank you for the correction on spell checking. I should tell you, however, that my textbooks all say “run-ons.” There is no apostrophe, because it is not possessive.
:wink:

71

I referenced Shylock, whom as I understand it was a person who wanted justice, eye for eye. If one is to hold another to account by a certain measure, they must be prepared to have the same measure used on themselves, which in Shakespeare’s play, was Shylocks undoing.

72

I try not to, especially because I spell so poorly myself. There are always a few that really really tempt me: There for Their, your for you’re, etc. But sometimes that is just a typo too.

OTOH, I would be very disappointed to see the board degenerate into leet speak or some other nonsense, and am often glad to see people chastised for that.

It does concern me though that we may lose some good members who speak english as a second language and are unjustly attacked. Lord knows I have no other language so they should be applauded for their efforts.

73

This isn’t what s/he typed, and it’s an incorrect correction. “Run-on” is the correct spelling, and “run-ons” is the correct plural. I’m not all that uptight about it, but when I get home, I’ll post a short paragraph from Neal Stephenson’s book The Big U. The snippet involves a senior who gets a C on her paper for Freshman English; when she brings her paper and a freshman’s paper (riddled with gross spelling and grammar heresies) to the professor asking why he gave the freshman a B, well… hilarity ensues.

Anyhow, I like to think we’ve got a sense of humor about spelling. We’ve even got a little gag here called Gaudere’s law, which states that anytime you post to correct someone’s spelling, you’ll have a typo in your post. Despite my best intentions, I know I’ll end up with a typo in this post for correcting your correction.

Do I think spelling is important? Yes.

…and of course, on preview, I see that vivalostwages has got it covered. Fie.

74

Fair enough!

Still, I think there’s a distinction between the occasional misspelling or typo and perpetually bad grammar. It’s true nobody’s perfect, but the point isn’t being perfect – the point is to improve.

75

Was Smartguysmile banned because of his spelling/grammar?

It was difficult to tell if he was a native English speaker or not. Considering how many posters made fun of him, though, if he could have improved his spelling/grammar I think he would have.

76

I don’t believe he was banned, though I haven’t gone looking. Certainly “This Board Turd” was closed, perhaps as just being a pointless-thread.

He didn’t strike me as being a native English speaker, and perhaps he was too proud to admit that he was still learning the language. He seemed to have, essentially, a different grammar than standard English grammar.

It does take time to improve ability to speak a language – so much easier to understand than to speak, oddly – but just a simple note of “I don’t speak English natively, so please forgive my mistakes” would have probably done wonders.

77

: Thinks about P. Diddy sampling Bach. :
: Head aplodes. :

78

Other people are addressing their own points, but you’re setting up a ridiculous argument in this case. There’s “lazy” when it comes to using contractions that are acceptible as part of ordinary language in the part of the world that you come from (for example, using “Uni” as a shorthand method of saying “University” is more common than not in Australia, and is correct in common speech down here), and then there’s “lazy” that involves knowing what the correct convention is (for example, “you’re” versus “your” versus “ur”), and refusing to use it because you either can’t be bothered or “who cares how it’s spelt as long as you can read it”.

And to point it out again, because you seem to be missing the point so very, very much: Typos and contractions and the occasional error are not the issue that people have here. Everybody on this board acknowledges you’ll have lazy fingers or a brain fart or sometimes just can’t get a handle on a certain word that always eludes you (my personal bugbear is discrete. I always have to try a couple of times to get that one right, and I’m never sure that I have). What is unacceptable to most people here is those who are getting to the point of being incomprehensible with the way they spell and use grammar, and who seem to be unconcerned about ever learning the correct way to communicate.

79

Not exactly. Shylock didn’t want “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” Old Testament style revenge. He wanted a pound of Antonio’s flesh, which although somewhat malicious, was entirely within his rights given that that was a condition of the contract that Antonio had entered into. Shylock’s “undoing” wasn’t that the same measure was applied to him, it was that Portia thwarted him by insisting to the court that although he was entitled to the pound of flesh, he couldn’t spill any of Antonio’s blood in taking it. He was out-manoeuvered on a legal technicality, that was all. And I still think Portia’s argument was specious.

80

true, but he justified his desire legally with the “eye for eye” argument, which was eventually applied to him with respect to the blood rule. The point is, you cant hold people to linguistic perfection unless you are without blame yourself. May he who is perfect cast the first stone etc.