# Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235 "2004-02-26T03:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/181 "2004-02-28T13:12:40Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > When they apologize to me for their behavior first, not before. All I did was make nasty comments, they are trying to draft a fucking amendment to the constitution to take away my rights. If you think those are equivalent in offense, you’re more of a fool than I thought. So, bigotry condones bigotry? Come on, **gobear** , you’re smarter than that. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/182 "2004-02-28T13:41:53Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Enlighten me. **Lib**. What are the circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to those beliefs? I’m as ignorant of that as you are. I’m too busy dealing with my own life’s circumstances to presume that I have time to make informed judgments about someone else’s. > [@](#): > > Do _you_ hold those beliefs? You should know the answer to that. If not, then you’re willfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/183 "2004-02-28T13:48:13Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > You should know the answer to that. If not, then you’re willfully ignorant. I’m willfully ignorant if I don’t what beliefs _you_ hold? Were your beliefs explained to me, but I rejected them? They were self evident but I closed my eyes to them? Or perhaps you mean that you have explained your particular beliefs in other threads? In that case, it would only be willfull ignorance if I had read those posts, and remembered them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/184 "2004-02-28T14:56:02Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Just by you saying that, you know your answer doesn’t adequately meet the question. But it’s got you considering something different, which is good. I gave you the standard answer not because I necessarily believe it, but because it’s, well, the standard answer. Even if one doesn’t accept it, it makes sense to use that as a starting point, and then go on from there. > [@](#): > > But there very much is a social norm, it’s an irrational belief in an ancient God, at least from the pov of an outsider like myself. That is the exact opposite of misfits. And there is enormous pressure to conform to that norm, not just in conventional terms (media, family, peers, pressure to be ‘normal’, etc) but in this historical sense of it being ‘American’ - some of your very identity is tied to this religious norm. > > This is not a criticism, it’s the point from which others have to begin to attempt to understand why the people of your country have uniquely gone down this path. There is, after all, an explanation somewhere – it might be in the water supply or the food chain, but I tend to believe it has to be in history. Somewhere. > > So in this observers view, Christian fundamentalism an extraordinary, spectacular, irrational, emotionally-driven (imho) social norm. > > And perhaps as interestingly, if one accepts the potential for a link between belief in Jesus Christ and identify/belief with the nation state itself (as per my last post), belief in Jesus Christ can then be fuelled by patriotism, and patriotism can also be fuelled by belief in Jesus Christ because . . . belief in both is, ultimately, indistinguishable. > > Perhaps at that point, some may understand why to outsiders the US can sometimes be scary. But there is not a **national** social norm. I’m an atheist. Been so since I was about 14. And I’ve never felt any pressure to believe in God. Never. There may be some local or regional social norms, but even then it’s no way near universal. The kind of complete religious fundamentalists that we’ve been talking about in this thread are a small minority in the US. They may be a vocal minority, and they may even be a majority in a few (very few) localities, but I think you’re overestimating their numbers. The US is a church-going country, especially when compared to European countries. But don’t confuse that with rampant religious fundamentalism. There may also be a difference in European countries because most have had a state religion at some time in their histories (correct me if I’m wrong about this). That’s the kind of social norm I was talking about in my earlier post. In the US, there are dozens of religions, so there has been no uniform control over that institution. No effort by the state to secularize it, if you will. And I think the patriotism you see here has a more lot to do with the fact that virtually everyone here (or their ancestors at some point) \*\*chose \*\* to come here on purpose. I don’t know if most Europeans can appreciate that. [The big exception there, of course, is the descendants of African slaves-- and that’s an issue the consequences of which we are still wrestling with.] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/185 "2004-02-28T15:08:51Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > So, bigotry condones bigotry? Come on, **gobear** , you’re smarter than that. And again you are making no distinction between the oppressors and their victims. Bigtory is unreasoning prejudice; are you saying that defending gay people against the American Taliban is naught but bigotry? You can see no other reason that I would resent the backers of a Constitutional amendment that would officially declare me a second-class citizen? I’m just being a mean ole bigot against Dubya and his cronies? **Lib** , stop playing word games and defending the indefensible. Rejecting science for the comforts of Bronze age mythology is ignorance or the word has no meaning. Believing in God is not ignorant because the existence of God is not a clearcut, testable issue, but rejecting science’s findings to embrace the contradictory, discredited belief that the Earth is only 6,000 years IS ignorant. **Dropzone** , as has been pointed out, we’ve been here before. But even if we didn’t have the example of history before us, my comparisons would still be valid in kind, if not in degree. Gay people are being attacked by the government, which wants to enshrine the religious bigotry of its leadership into law. I don’t think I’m being the least bit “shrill” in pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/186 "2004-02-28T15:19:22Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And again you are making no distinction between the oppressors and their victims. Bigtory is unreasoning prejudice; are you saying that defending gay people against the American Taliban is naught but bigotry? You can see no other reason that I would resent the backers of a Constitutional amendment that would officially declare me a second-class citizen? I’m just being a mean ole bigot against Dubya and his cronies? I understand why you would resent the backers of the proposed Constitutional amendment, but you are assuming that all fundamentalists are for of it. This has been proven wrong time and time again in this thread alone. If you wish to cotinue to make that assertion, then you are being willfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/187 "2004-02-28T15:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I understand why you would resent the backers of the proposed Constitutional amendment, but you are assuming that all fundamentalists are for of it. This has been proven wrong time and time again in this thread alone. If you wish to cotinue to make that assertion, then you are being willfully ignorant. And to those religious conservatives who are for gay marriage, my apologies. The other 99% can go fuck themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/188 "2004-02-28T15:58:03Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But it does. Believing an obvious load of drivel written by camel jockeys 2000 years ago is the absolute truth about everything is by nature stupid and ignorant. I love the disconnect here: in the same sentence you call fundamentalists “stupid and ignorant,” you also resort to a well-known racial epithet. Why not just call the Biblical authors “towelheads” while you’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/189 "2004-02-28T16:35:15Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And to those religious conservatives who are for gay marriage, my apologies. The other 99% can go fuck themselves. Progress!!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/190 "2004-02-28T17:27:28Z")
> [@MrVisible](#): > > This is where I reveal the depth of my current paranoia, the fear that has gripped me ever since I saw the President call me and the man I love a threat during the State of the Union address. It got me to thinking about what happens if we lose this fight. So I started doing some research, which is one of my usual responses to fear. It hasn’t helped. > > From what I’ve learned, nobody ever believe that things can get as bad as they do. Nobody ever sees the brownshirts coming. > > And we’ve been in sight of victory before. > I’m starting to think that there’s a lot more to lose in this fight than the right to marry. If we lose this, we’ll be branded by the Constitution as a separate class of citizens, with fewer rights than non-gays. And according to the polls, the American people won’t object to this too much. We don’t have the ability in most places in the US to challenge being fired because of our sexuality. We can be kicked out of our houses for being gay, and we can’t do a thing about it. We don’t have a lot of resources to fall back on, legally speaking. It was only a few months ago that laws which condemned us to jail for loving each other were declared unconstitutional. > > Meanwhile, my boyfriend and I will keep watching the news, keeping tabs on how bad things get. And we’ll hope that we’re smart enough to leave the country before things get too bad; hope, basically, that we won’t delude ourselves into thinking that this can’t happen here until it does, and it happens to us. **MrVisible** , i’m not much for going “great post,” but really – great post. I personally think that things are moving forward in your country, and whatever I may think about the US political scene, I doubt that there’s a crash coming. I know damn well that you and others like you will work your asses off to prevent any such thing from taking place. I want you to know, however, that if - if - the worst should happen, you have a place up here. I mean that seriously, and I think that is one thing that Canadian queers would be unanimous on. We’ve done it [before](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_Railroad); we can do it again. Fear no evil. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/191 "2004-02-28T19:01:57Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And to those religious conservatives who are for gay marriage, my apologies. The other 99% can go fuck themselves. Thank you. That’s all I was asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/192 "2004-02-28T20:09:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But it does. Believing an obvious load of drivel written by camel jockeys 2000 years ago is the absolute truth about everything is by nature stupid and ignorant. If I were to tell you that I thought rock carvings of lizards and birds on the walls of caves made by aborigines were made by the creator of the universe and that we should order our days based on our understandings of what those rock carvings said, even if that meant ignoring things we’ve learned since then that have tons of evidence to back them up, I’d be pretty damned stupid and ignorant. Well, the Bible’s pretty much the same thing. **Evil Captor** , do not use racial slurs/hate speech on the SDMB. Lynn For the Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/193 "2004-02-28T21:26:29Z")
This turned out to be an interesting thread. Especially interesting is that it was started because of a movie whose message, if it were seen and understood and adhered to, would negate the need for the thread in the first place. The message I took from _The Passion of Christ_ most strongly was “Love one another.” No matter the sin or circumstance, human beings should love their friends and their enemies both, because to do otherwise brings only pain. I understand where **gobear** is coming from too. I’m not a Christian, and I fully support the idea of homosexual marriage. I practically applauded when Rosie O’Donnell said that she got married to her female partner _because_ she was “inspired” by Bush’s statement regarding a Constitutional ban on gay marriage. Talk about the law of unintended consequences! I bet Bush didn’t see that coming… 😃 And it frustrates me to no end when I hear anyone, Christian or otherwise, talk about how “wrong” homosexuality is, how gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry, and now the talk of a national ban on gay marriage. When I hear people talk like that, I know they are bigots. When Bush says that he will push for a Constitutional ban on gay marriage, it proves to me, once and for all, that he is an ignorant bigot. But I can’t say the same for _all_ “fundies,” however you want to define that term. For example, I knew a young man in college who could be described as a fundamentalist. He went on missions for his faith, and he believed strongly in much of what the Bible said. But he could have intelligent conversations about his beliefs, and I always enjoyed talking to him. I do not know what his stance on gay marriage was, but another man we both knew was openly gay, and they were friendly. He didn’t seem to have a problem with it, or if he did he didn’t show it. The point is, nobody could call him “ignorant,” despite the fact that he might be described as a “fundie.” This is why I think **gobear** is going about things the wrong way. He is convinced that he is Right and anyone who doesn’t fit his definition is Wrong. He is convinced that he can freely insult anyone who fits the label “fundamentalist Christian” and be right in what he says. What he’s doing, however, through his negative statements, is turning people who might otherwise be at least willing to discuss the issues at hand with him against him by default. He’s not criticizing their opinions or arguments, he is insulting their deeply-held beliefs and their persons, and he’s doing it based on a broad generalization. It’s counter-productive. Granted, there are many who would simply hold their hands over their ears and deny that **gobear** has any standing. But there are also many who would listen, and try to understand, if he were more reasonable and less automatically militant. As **John Mace** and **Lord Ashtar** have said, generalizations of any kind are usually wrong. Bigotry of any kind is _always_ wrong. I agree with much of you’re saying, **gobear** , and you won’t find anyone who’s a stronger supporter of gay marriage than me. I’m not your enemy. However, I do not agree with how you’re going about this. You’re not doing yourself, or the issues you raise, any good. I’d go as far as to say that you’re doing more harm than good. The key, to me, is to be better than those who are trying to hobble you. Don’t sink to their level. “Love one another”… it’s such a simple message, such a simple philosophy. After the movie last night, I found myself wishing that more people, both Christians and otherwise, could follow it. And I am sad that more people cannot find it in their hearts to do so. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/194 "2004-02-29T01:13:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The kind of complete religious fundamentalists that we’ve been talking about in this thread are a small minority in the US. They may be a vocal minority, and they may even be a majority in a few (very few) localities, but I think you’re overestimating their numbers. Did you read my posts. You do know I’m talking about the broad irrational, emotionally based function of religion (beyond the text of the Bible) in a particular society as compared to other societies, religion in all its degrees of fervour. Right ? > [@John Mace](#): > > And I think the patriotism you see here has a more lot to do with the fact that virtually everyone here (or their ancestors at some point) \*\*chose \*\* to come here on purpose. I don’t know if most Europeans can appreciate that. [The big exception there, of course, is the descendants of African slaves-- and that’s an issue the consequences of which we are still wrestling with.] As opposed to Canada, or Australia, or NZ ? People are more patriotic because someone chose to go there 100 years ago ? I guess there’s an outside chance of a different kind of patriotism but . . . what was your point again - mine was that, in modern America, religion and patriotism can fuel one another. From what I can see, there’s no substance to your point. This isn’t something you’ve thought about in any depth and you’re reacting for the sake of reacting. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/195 "2004-02-29T02:03:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And to those religious conservatives who are for gay marriage, my apologies. The other 99% can go fuck themselves. For the record, I am religious, yet a liberal. Which is good casue I really didn’t want to f\*\*\* myself. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/196 "2004-02-29T05:42:19Z")
> [@MrVisible](#): > > Things looked good for homosexuals in Germany in the aftermath of the first World War. There was a thriving homosexual culture, gay bars and cabarets were trendy places for the avant-garde to hang out, and an emancipation movement for homosexuals, focused on the elimination of paragraph 175 of the criminal code was in full swing. How many people would have believed that in a decade, homosexuals would be driven into camps and worked to death in numbers reaching the hundreds of thousands? > > … > > I know, I sound paranoid. I know it seems impossible. But it’s happened before. And there’s nothing to prevent it from happening again. No, and eliminating that law would have done nothing–NOTHING–to prevent the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler. Laws are nearly useless as a gauge of current public opinion. Laws are created and eliminated long after the the trigger for the law has come or gone like a dog’s tail begins to wag seconds after the dog sees his master. This one will not pass and it will be followed by fewer and fewer such attempts to legislate against you. And the very best way to guarantee that it will fail is by you and other gay people being yourselves in public, though Tuscon might not be the best place for it. :eek: However, I am a naive midwesterner who was raised, like most of us around here, to want to know as little as possible about my neighbors’ private lives. We invented “I won’t ask and, dear God, please don’t tell me” (And that’s not just about your sex life. I don’t want to know about anybody else’s sex life. Or their health problems.) so I’m probably a poor judge of the risks you take every day. If you are feeling unsafe where you live all I can do is suggest you move around here someplace. The Upper Midwest may have a godawful climate but we have a job market. And laws against harassing gays that are enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/197 "2004-02-29T07:38:18Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > I love the disconnect here: in the same sentence you call fundamentalists “stupid and ignorant,” you also resort to a well-known racial epithet. Why not just call the Biblical authors “towelheads” while you’re at it? yes, it was wrong of me to use bad words to describe a group of people who, by all historical accounts including their own holy books, thought it was OK to attack other tribes, kill all the men, and take the women and children as your slaves. I really am deeply ashamed. To describe such people as anything less than saints and fonts of human enlightenment indicates a deep and abiding flaw in my nature. People who follow teachings written by murderers and slavers as the absolute truth concerning the universe and human existence are no more or less ignorant than … OK, the horseshit is getting too deep here. Have ta stop. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/198 "2004-02-29T07:43:27Z")
Evil Captor, perhaps you missed Lynn Bodoni’s warning to you, about your racial slurs/hate speech? Get a clue, man. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/199 "2004-02-29T07:46:11Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > yes, it was wrong of me to use bad words to describe a group of people who, by all historical accounts including their own holy books, thought it was OK to attack other tribes, kill all the men, and take the women and children as your slaves. . Been quite a few white and black tribes who thought that that was okeydokey, too. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/200 "2004-02-29T07:50:26Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > Evil Captor, perhaps you missed Lynn Bodoni’s warning to you, about your racial slurs/hate speech? > > Get a clue, man. I did not repeat the term. I’ll obey the rules of the board and not use the term any more. But I’ve read enough about how people behaved in Old Testament times to not deeply respect them as thinkers. I am vaguely amazed that anyone does. I think the Bible is a remarkable achievement, considering who wrote it. But it’s still full of contradictions, meaningless babble, and other stuff which can reasonably be described as crap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=11)