# Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235 "2004-02-26T03:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/241 "2004-03-01T04:01:10Z")
with a name like anal scurvy you know its gotta be good. 😉 smile a bit? He needs to quit “oozing” apparently. lol us fundies will change our minds if it bothers you anal. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/242 "2004-03-01T04:04:27Z")
> [@Anal Scurvy](#): > > . Like those tracts with sodomy. Papa bear wants it in the back door! (sorry, too much crank yankers dialogue keeps going thru my head) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/243 "2004-03-01T04:14:28Z")
> [@MrVisible](#): > > …And we both have jobs here… But-but-but, your website says otherwise! (leaves the thread muttering about people who don’t update their websites 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/244 "2004-03-01T05:56:23Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > The reason why people (Bible believing Christians) are so upset about this is because of two major reasons. The Bible condemns it; condoning it is basically slapping God in the face. Fucking fundies. Get your goddamned god out of my yard. > [@](#): > > Also, if Christians believe the Bible to be true, they want to raise their children the way the Bible says to. If they support something that is condemned by God, that is telling them the Bible doesn’t really matter. Raise your ignorant little brats however you like. Tell them whatever lies you feel like. Just don’t try and get the government to do it for you. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I am a Bible believing Christian, as most already know, and as much as some would like to believe, I do not hate gay people and I do not wish death or pain on them. Then act like it. > [@](#): > > I know that my supporting this amendment is difficult for many to understand, but this is a very big issue within Christianity, that has great consequences if not corrected. No, it’s simple to understand. You’re too bigoted to realize that other people deserve to be treated as equals under the law. And nobody, I mean nobody, has ever been able to explain what the dire consequences of that equality under the law might have. > [@](#): > > So far, I have made up stuff, like, “they are sisters” or something. This is not good. My job as a parent is difficult, but as a Christian, it makes it that much more difficult. And Jesus said “Lie to your children about stuff that makes you uncomfortable. This is fine by me. Dishonesty in the service of bigotry is what I’m all about.” > [@](#): > > I know many of you cannot understand, and I am sorry. I feel the same way as you do, just at the opposite end of the spectrum. Let me check. Do I feel bigoted? Nope. Ignorant? Nope. Oppressive? Nope. Evil as all fucking hell? Nope. No, nothing like you, **Jersey**. > [@](#): > > I do not think the amendment will pass anyway, so you are probably getting upset for nothing, **Gobear**. We should realize that not everyone will agree on everything, and people will always stand up for what they believe. No matter how ugly their ideas, how badly reasoned, how hypocritical, how ignorant, how downright evil they are, people still stand up for their ideas. There’s no inherent merit in that, especially not if your ideas serve to cause others harm. Nobody oozes smugness like **Jersey Diamond** , that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/245 "2004-03-01T05:58:41Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But-but-but, your website says otherwise! > > (leaves the thread muttering about people who don’t update their websites 😉 ) Sorry. I’m trying to update, but the webmaster who generously donated the space to run the site and the bandwidth has accidentally revoked my write privileges on the directory. I’ve reminded him to fix it a couple of times already, but it’s tough to be pushy about a gift. Soon, it will be up to date. I hope. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/246 "2004-03-01T06:13:54Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > Whatever my child believes when she is older is her choice. But the Bible says that if we raise a child up right, they shall not part from those ways; this is what Christians are trying to do. This may be what you are trying to do, but it is not what the proposed amendment is trying to do. This amendment is trying to enforce, by secular authority a particular religious rule on a population that does not share the faith from which it comes. God has nothing to do with it. Claiming His authority makes the purpose contrary to the intent of the Constitution. Claiming your own authority makes it dangerous to your own spirit. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I am a Bible believing Christian, as most already know, and as much as some would like to believe, I do not hate gay people and I do not wish death or pain on them. But you do wish to require them to adhere to the legalistic interpretation of a law that is not a part of faith for them. Obeying this law, even if it is the Law of God, is not and expression of faith in Him, it is compelled behavior. Compelling it not only does not protect gays from sin; it drives them away from the Love of God. Wrong either way. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/247 "2004-03-01T06:50:25Z")
I was brought up in a church that would probably fit the description of fundamentalist. I was part of this church for the first 23 years of my life. I worked in its church camps and participated on a national level in youth activities. For two years I attended the only college sponsored by this denomination and my major at that time was religious education. So I know this church well. And I’m telling you that they were and are a mixed lot! Some are politically liberal and some are very conservative. Some are ignorant and some are accomplished university professors with impressive credentials. It is foolish to think that all of fundamentalism is defined by ignorance. (It was even a young minister in this church that introduced me to the concept that maybe stories of the Old Testament are myths.) It seems to me that our greatest problems come from a segment of fundamentalists who are self-righteous, controlling and politically active. Some of them are not very bright and others are mentally intelligent but emotionally unintelligent. Sometimes they seem to have thrown out the most important part of the faith and appear to be acting and reacting by rote. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/248 "2004-03-01T07:03:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Zoe > Is Evil Captor bad-mouthing America’s founders now too? > [@](#): > > **Evil Captor** : We can go to another thread if you want to dispute this. It’s undeniable that many of the pre-Columbian peoples of North America were far from the granola-munching hippies of the plains they are portrayed as nowadays. You’ve been reading books that portray them as “granola-munching hippies”? Why waste your time? I think I will just return to the topic of this particular thread. I think it’s important. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/249 "2004-03-01T07:04:40Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > Obeying this law, even if it is the Law of God, is not and expression of faith in Him, it is compelled behavior. Compelling it not only does not protect gays from sin; it drives them away from the Love of God. > > Wrong either way. Yes, yes, yes, so true. No matter what your opinions are on this matter, it’s always wrong to try to force people or deny them something that everyone else is enjoying. It never works. It only breeds anger and frustration and resentment. I feel very strongly about this because I _have_ had a taste of this sort of treatment (on a very trivial matter compared to this) and I still feel resentment over the _arrogance_ and _presumption_ of these particular people. Just speaking from a pragmatic viewpoint, it’s the wrong way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/250 "2004-03-01T07:05:23Z")
**Zoe** , I’ve just got to say that I found your post insightful. Good show! ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/251 "2004-03-01T08:29:03Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Yes, I’m criticizing their deeply held beliefs, because among their beliefs is the idea that I, and other same-sex-loving folks, should be treated as criminals and be stripped of our civil rights. That opinion is wrong. There’s no debate, there’s no looking at things their way–anyone who believes that his religion entitles him to be superior to me is my enemy, period. I was moved, upon reading **gobear** ’s post late last night, to write a rather long-winded response to it. I quoted Gandhi. I expostualted on the nature of love and conflict and the wisdom of non-violent non-cooperation. It was the kind of post that could solve the problems in the Middle East today, if the right people read it and took it to heart. It was a rare moment, for me, of nearly ideal lucidity. Then, of course, the hamsters chewed it up and spit out nothing. It always happens to the best posts. I don’t have it in me to do it all again tonight, but I would like to say to **gobear** that I understand and respect what you’re going through. I admire your determination in the face of all the opposition arrayed against you. My best hope for you is that you learn to discern where your friends are, even though they may be standing in the same circle as your enemies. Remember to look carefully before judging people, or you may end up excluding someone who could be a valuable ally in your fight. Try very hard, for example, not to lump the **Zoe** s of this world in with the **JerseyDiamond** s, just for the sake of a clever phrase or an easy description. Your resistance should be directed at your enemies, so that your friends can take up your fight as well. That said, I think you’re fighting the good fight, and I hope you continue until you win it. Oh, OK… one [Gandhi quote](http://quote.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Gandhi), because it sums up perfectly what I want to say, and I hope **gobear** may find some solace in it. Talking about the progression of stages that often go with non-violent resistance, Mohandas Gandhi summed it up this way: > [@](#): > > **First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.** Stay strong… this is the hardest part, but you’re nearly there. Though hatred may seem to be overwhelming at times, love will conquer. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/252 "2004-03-01T09:01:10Z")
Does anyone else sense the irony of Gobear’s being angry, at least in part, at some religious institutions for being denied a privilege that originated, at least in part, from religious institutions? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/253 "2004-03-01T11:39:26Z")
> [@MrVisible](#): > > Raise your ignorant little brats however you like. Tell them whatever lies you feel like. You are a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/254 "2004-03-01T12:09:30Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > The reason why people (Bible believing Christians) are so upset about this is because of two major reasons. The Bible condemns it; condoning it is basically slapping God in the face. > > Also, if Christians believe the Bible to be true, they want to raise their children the way the Bible says to. If they support something that is condemned by God, that is telling them the Bible doesn’t really matter. > > They want to protect their children from anything that will mislead them and possibly condemn them. > > Whatever my child believes when she is older is her choice. But the Bible says that if we raise a child up right, they shall not part from those ways; this is what Christians are trying to do. > > Anyway, I am a Bible believing Christian, as most already know, and as much as some would like to believe, I do not hate gay people and I do not wish death or pain on them. > > I know that my supporting this amendment is difficult for many to understand, but this is a very big issue within Christianity, that has great consequences if not corrected. > > I do wish that I did not have to explain this to my daughter at such a young age, but I do, and the media is not making it easy. > > This is a very difficult subject for me/us. > > So far, I have made up stuff, like, “they are sisters” or something. This is not good. My job as a parent is difficult, but as a Christian, it makes it that much more difficult. > > I know many of you cannot understand, and I am sorry. I feel the same way as you do, just at the opposite end of the spectrum. > > I know that I will be flamed for this, and that is ok. There are two sides, and not everyone will understand everything. > > I do not think the amendment will pass anyway, so you are probably getting upset for nothing, **Gobear**. We should realize that not everyone will agree on everything, and people will always stand up for what they believe. You are _really_ not helping here, **JerseyDiamond**. We have a separation of church and state here in the U.S., which means you don’t get to force your beliefs on anyone else through the law, and certainly not the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/255 "2004-03-01T13:49:52Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > I don’t expect anyone to respect people who oppress other people’s civil rights, period. No matter what the reasoning behind it. > > I have to say, this thread has been really eye-opening. > > Here I am, not really giving a damn who believes (or doesn’t believe) what, as long as they don’t hurt (or oppress) anyone else. To me it’s pretty simple. I know that my beliefs look “crackpot” to someone looking at them from the outside. I know that many beliefs of other cultures look “crackpot” to me ('cause I’m on the outside for them). But the funny thing is, I don’t really give a damn, nor do I think that these fellow “crackpots” are stupid, irrational, deluded, or not worthy of my respect. I just think they have had different experiences. And as long as their so-called “crackpot” beliefs don’t hurt anyone, who gives a damn? We’re all crackpot in some way or another, after all. > > So, I find it astonishing to find that there are a lot of people (many on this thread) who look down on the rest of us, thinking that we’re stupid, deluded, irrational, foolish creatures. They smugly look down their noses at us. Even those of us who have done _nothing_ to harm them. ('Cause as has been demonstrated on this thread, not all people who have religion are out to oppress.) > > :shrug: I dunno. I just find it ironic, is all. I’d rather be a happy “crackpot” than some of the rest of you, who apparently spend a great deal of time wondering why all of us religious folk are so stupid and deluded and (there’s that word again) _irrational_, while simultaniously patting youeselves on the back because you’re so much smarter. > > This “smug and superior” act goes both ways, you know. We’re not trying to legislate against your right to be deluded. We’re _defending_ your right to be deluded, as long as it doesn’t impede anyone else’s rights, and is done with private funding. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/256 "2004-03-01T14:05:49Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > We’re not trying to legislate against your right to be deluded. We’re _defending_ your right to be deluded, as long as it doesn’t impede anyone else’s rights, and is done with private funding. One more time: When, where, how, what the hell? Where exactly did I give the impression that I was not aware of the fact that there are religious folk who want to take rights away from gay people? Where? Huh? Where exactly did I dispute this fact, and how exactly did I give the impression that I thought that contempt towards those who oppress was unacceptable? Where? Where? Copy and paste my quotes. I want to see where I gave you that impression. One more time: Do some of you _have_ to be so contemptuous and snotty towards everyone with a faith, including those **who are not trying to take away anyone’s rights**? If you want to single out those who are out to oppress and direct your oozing contempt towards them, fine. Fine fine fine fine. No problem, no complaints from me. It’s when you can’t seem to stop there, and you ooze your condescending contempt towards all of us, even the harmless ones, then I take notice. I have learned, thanks to many agnostic and atheist friends, to try to be gracious and “non-preachy” about my faith. I don’t want to give them a hard time, I don’t want to tell them that I think their lack of faith is lamentable (I really don’t think that way anyway), I don’t want to offend them. I like them. And, in turn, they don’t tell me that I am deluded and irrational. They say, “Well whatever makes you happy” and they smile and we get along. That’s because they like me too. They don’t look down on me as if I am some sort of deluded lab experiment, and I don’t look down on them as some sort of misguided heathen. In other words, we don’t rain on each others’ parades. It’s a nice little system. There are a lot of us religious folk who have no desire, in any way, to rain on your parade. And yet some of you won’t stop raining on ours, and you seem to feel that you are wholly entitled to do so. Do you see the irony in that? I sure do. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/257 "2004-03-01T14:28:27Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Does anyone else sense the irony of Gobear’s being angry, at least in part, at some religious institutions for being denied a privilege that originated, at least in part, from religious institutions? Marriage is not the exclusive domain of religion and has never been. In fact the church co-opted it from society, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/258 "2004-03-01T14:58:19Z")
_posted by JerseyDiamond_ > [@](#): > > I do wish that I did not have to explain this to my daughter at such a young age, but I do, and the media is not making it easy. What if your daughter is gay? Will you tell her: “go love your sister”? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/259 "2004-03-01T15:26:26Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > One more time: When, where, how, what the hell? Where exactly did I give the impression that I was not aware of the fact that there are religious folk who want to take rights away from gay people? Where? Huh? Where exactly did I dispute this fact, and how exactly did I give the impression that I thought that contempt towards those who oppress was unacceptable? Where? Where? Copy and paste my quotes. I want to see where I gave you that impression. > > One more time: Do some of you _have_ to be so contemptuous and snotty towards everyone with a faith, including those **who are not trying to take away anyone’s rights**? > > If you want to single out those who are out to oppress and direct your oozing contempt towards them, fine. Fine fine fine fine. No problem, no complaints from me. > > It’s when you can’t seem to stop there, and you ooze your condescending contempt towards all of us, even the harmless ones, then I take notice. > > I have learned, thanks to many agnostic and atheist friends, to try to be gracious and “non-preachy” about my faith. I don’t want to give them a hard time, I don’t want to tell them that I think their lack of faith is lamentable (I really don’t think that way anyway), I don’t want to offend them. I like them. > > And, in turn, they don’t tell me that I am deluded and irrational. They say, “Well whatever makes you happy” and they smile and we get along. That’s because they like me too. They don’t look down on me as if I am some sort of deluded lab experiment, and I don’t look down on them as some sort of misguided heathen. > > In other words, we don’t rain on each others’ parades. It’s a nice little system. > > There are a lot of us religious folk who have no desire, in any way, to rain on your parade. And yet some of you won’t stop raining on ours, and you seem to feel that you are wholly entitled to do so. Do you see the irony in that? I sure do. I understand what you’ve been saying. Completely. I was simply saying I don’t care that religious people are deluded. I won’t just go up to someone who is religious and tell them that, but in a discussion about religion in general, it’s a fair comment. I will defend your right to your faith, and I’ll fight you tooth and nail if you try to bring that faith into American government. That’s all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/260 "2004-03-01T15:30:00Z")
I’ve trying to learn what it means to be a Christian by reading the gospels and thus far, I haven’t seen anything that Jesus said that would lead me to believe that he condemned homosexuality. Even more importantly-I have no desire to live under a theocracy-be it Christian or Moslem or Buddhist. Period. “Marriage” is the province of religion and should be celebrated as such… All adults-regardless of their sexual preferences should have the right to enter into a legally binding union recognized by the State and all legal contracts should be given equal validity whether the participants are hetro or homosexual. The State has no business in either the heart the bedroom. What’s so hard to comprehend about that? And any religious group that attempts to impose its’ moral agenda on the government should be greeted with disdain and loathing for trying to suppress all of our basic freedoms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=14)