# Why defend fundies if we are at war with ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235 "2004-02-26T03:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/401 "2004-03-04T17:38:31Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > It doesn’t say it’s a sin, it says it’s an abomination to God, and that he/she will not inherit the kingson of God. Depending if you look at the OT or NT. That’s your opinion. Many learned Bible scholars don’t think that the Bible says anything, condemnatory or otherwise, regarding the modern notion of homosexuality at all. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/402 "2004-03-04T17:41:50Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > If you seek hatred, you will find it. If you call being gay a sin, you are spreading it, whether one seeks it or not. > [@](#): > > Must I be a homosexual in order not to be a homophobe? No, but you must be a decent person, something beyond the pale of any fundamentalist Christian or Biblical literalist. > [@](#): > > Homosexuality is behavior. Bullshit, you ignorant fuckhead. Homosexuality is an orientation. Before I ever had gay sex, I was just as gay as I am today. Even on the handful of occasions when I slept with girls. > [@](#): > > There is no chance that homosexuals, as a group are in fact a group. What the fuck is this supposed to mean? > [@](#): > > Would it be better if I just gave in and started hating everyone who differed from me? If you call them sinners, then you already do. Yours is a hate religion. > [@](#): > > I think I will pass that oportunity up. And the rest of this discussion, too, since it seems that I cannot be accepted as an individual living his live by his own standards, but must grab a banner, and line up to hate one or another bunch of people. Little baby can’t support its position, so little baby is gonna run away. Pathetic, and very “Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/403 "2004-03-04T17:43:56Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I’ll try to answer this, until my lovely wife can come back to the thread. > > As a Christian, my belief is that I should always keep the examples and teachings Jesus provided for us in the forefront of my mind when going about my daily routine. That, essentially, is what I mean when I say “placing God first” or “preventing things from coming between me and God.” You’ve probably seen the “WWJD” (What Would Jesus Do) bracelets and such that some people wear. Same thing; that’s just a physical reminder. > > I believe Jesus wants me to give my employer the best of my talents/abilities, while always remembering the _reason_ that I work. > > Putting a job – ANY job – as the first priority in my life leads to problems, in my opinion. If the job is the most important thing to me, I will do it to the exclusion of other things I could/should be doing for my family, or perhaps to the exclusion of my family itself. Bad situation there. That doesn’t mean I don’t work; it just means that I keep in mind that I work to support my family. > > An example of this thought process: We’re attempting to finally get a handle on our debt, and pay off as much as we can. I have toyed with the idea of getting a second job, and using the income from that job to pay the debt off faster. Doing that would seriously impact the amount of time I have to spend with my family, though. I’m not willing to make that sacrifice. I would rather take longer to pay off the debts than take time away from my family, and I believe this is the path God would want me to take. > > Other parents/spouses make the same decision without incorporating their belief regarding God’s view of this situation. That’s cool; whatever works for them. For me, I believe my best option in any situation is to try to consider what God would want me to do. If I do that, I’m keeping Him as the main priority in my life. > > Does that make sense? Yes, and thanks (to Aries, too) for the response. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/404 "2004-03-04T17:45:50Z")
> [@Aries28](#): > > My job, my kids, my husband, my desires…all have to come second. . Anyone who puts their “relationship” with a God who may or may not exist above their children is unfit to be a parent. Anyone who would even consider doing so is unfit to be a parent. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/405 "2004-03-04T17:51:41Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I’m somewhat confused. > > An abomination to God is not a sin? Yes, it is a sin. I should have made some sort of emphasis. Lib said that no where in the Bible does it say, “homosexuality is a sin” and he is right. Some people need to have it spelled out exactly, in black in white. What I did was show what it does say. I used one example from the OT and one from the NT. I figured someone would say something to the effect of, “well, what about the verse after that (in the OT), blah, blah, blah” (siege + gobear) We should know that we are not bound by the laws of the OT, BUT since Lib said, “no where in the Bible”, I figured I would point it out, both OT and NT. Also, I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe Siege, my only issue is when you try to teach it as if it is Biblical. Believe what you want, but you should be careful what you teach others. What’s right to you may not be right to God. That is why we have the Bible to compare Gossip, malice, slander, and greed, are also condemned, and I condemn it. It just so happens that the issue is homosexuality; here, there, and in the news constantly, so that is what is being discussed. It is no less of a sin, and I do not think anyone claims it to be. > [@](#): > > Well, a lot of people will not inherit the kingdom of God — chief among them being those who place the law above mercy. You are right, a lot will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But how are you having mercy when you do not tell the truth? That is not mercy, that is giving people a direct flight to condemnation. Mercy is caring so much that you want people to make it. Not having mercy is letting people believe what they want, and telling them, “I am a Christian, and I say that it’s ok” I am simplying telling people what the Bible says. I do not add or take from it, and I do not condemn people for it. I know that God will judge me and everyone else. I do not condemn. My job is to tell the truth. > [@](#): > > Conversely the legalization of gay marriage imposes nothing on you Other than making it harder to raise impressionable (christian) children, and forcing me be tolerant of a sin that the Bible condemns, no, it does not impose anything on me. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/406 "2004-03-04T18:12:11Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > Other than making it harder to raise impressionable (christian) children, and forcing me be tolerant of a sin that the Bible condemns, no, it does not impose anything on me. So your ability to raise your children in the values of your hate cult should take precedence over my legal equality? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/407 "2004-03-04T18:15:20Z")
forcing people to be tolerant is a Good thing. It doesn’t make it any harder for ME to raise MY christian child. He could care less about who others marry. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/408 "2004-03-04T18:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > We should know that we are not bound by the laws of the OT, BUT since Lib said, “no where in the Bible”, I figured I would point it out, both OT and NT. Still waiting. > [@](#): > > You are right, a lot will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But how are you having mercy when you do not tell the truth? That is not mercy, that is giving people a direct flight to condemnation. Truth is the man Who stood before Pilate. There is no other truth. And He judges no one. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.” — Jesus (John 8:15) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/409 "2004-03-04T18:18:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > But to express this opinion, arrived at however logically, while still coming from the paradigm that posits the possibility that homosexuality–as distinct from homosexual behavior–is a sin, feels to me, at best, patronizing, and at worst, conniving at evil. Okay, how can you separate homosexuality from homosexual behavior? It sounds like you’re saying (although I don’t think you actually mean this) that it would not be a sin to be homosexual, but it WOULD be a sin to perform a homosexual act. I don’t think the two can be separated. This is like that program I saw that told the guy that god would accept him as long as he never “did it” with another man. But the guy is still gay, whether he’s having sex with anyone or not (I think there’s at least one person in our SD community who identifies as gay and has never had sex). Can you please clarify if this is what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/410 "2004-03-04T18:38:14Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > . . . > > Other than making it harder to raise impressionable (christian) children, and forcing me be tolerant of a sin that the Bible condemns, no, it does not impose anything on me. Hmmm. Childrearing not as simple and straightforward as you thought, due to choices you’ve made yourself. (One question: who said childrearing would be easy? Should you legislate against EVERYTHING that’s going to be difficult to explain to sheltered children? And what if one of your kids discovers they’re gay? They’ll have been raised in a world in which who they ARE is different from everything they know. And what kind of hypocritical bullshit is “a sin the Bible condemns”? You just said that the OT was not binding to Christians! How’s the cake you’re eatin’ on that one? You can’t have it both ways. Imagine how hard it’s gonna be to explain the sins of eating shelfish and wearing a polyester blend. If you’re going to claim OT rules for such rationalization, picking and choosing which to follow and which to discard just reveals your hypocrisy, and makes it clear that your reasoning is backward: homosexuality makes you go “ick,” so you feel relieved to find something in the Bible to blame for your discomfort. Eating shrimp makes you go “yum,” so no need for rationalization. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/411 "2004-03-04T18:41:08Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > Gossip, malice, slander, and greed, are also condemned, and I condemn it. It just so happens that the issue is homosexuality; here, there, and in the news constantly, so that is what is being discussed. It is no less of a sin, and I do not think anyone claims it to be. Do you tell your children (those poor kids) that mommy is going to hell for the sin of malice? You are probably the most malicious person on the boards. Or is malice one of the sins that doesn’t get you kicked out of the promised land? Better go check the book, huh? Wouldn’t want to reason it out on your own now, would you? > [@](#): > > Other than making it harder to raise impressionable (christian) children, and forcing me be tolerant of a sin that the Bible condemns, no, it does not impose anything on me. Get over it, Miss Congeniality. With any luck, those poor children of yours will see the light and run as fast and far from you and the Boy Genius as they can possibly get. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/412 "2004-03-04T18:44:03Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Still waiting. > Truth is the man Who stood before Pilate. There is no other truth. And He judges no one. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.” — Jesus (John 8:15) What is it that you ase waiting for? I already posted and responded to you. yoo just refuse to see. I cannot force you to see. A blind person can see what it means. Vanilla, my daughter see things on TV, and asks me about it. Particularly, the other day, I asked her if she wanted to walk to the store with me. As we were walking, she told me that Rosie McDonald (that’s what she calls her) got married to a girl. It was an issue for her, and she asked me why she was doing that. She was very confused because this is not an issue that I ever brought up with her (I thought she was too young to understand). Well, I was wrong. She is not too young, and we did in fact have a talk. It went well, so far. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/413 "2004-03-04T18:51:55Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Okay, how can you separate homosexuality from homosexual behavior? It sounds like you’re saying (although I don’t think you actually mean this) that it would not be a sin to be homosexual, but it WOULD be a sin to perform a homosexual act. I don’t think the two can be separated. This is like that program I saw that told the guy that god would accept him as long as he never “did it” with another man. But the guy is still gay, whether he’s having sex with anyone or not (I think there’s at least one person in our SD community who identifies as gay and has never had sex). Can you please clarify if this is what you meant? Is merely being heterosexual equivalent, in sin dollars, to committing adulter with your secretary? If lefthandedness were a sin, is it worse in the eyes of god to pick your nose with your left hand or your right? Think of homosexuality as a noun, and homosex as a verb: a quality as opposed to an action. I’m not gonna bother with people who believe that this action or that action is sinful; that’s their own problem. But I won’t accept that a human QUALITY–lefthandedness, baldness, homosexuality, is a sin; just makes no sense. I was born gay. Was my existence sinful as a neonate? When did my SELF become sinful? If you say it was the first time I had sex with another boy, then you acknowledge that there was a BEFORE–not sinful, and an AFTER–sinful. Separated only by an ACTION–me and Perry jerking each other off in the gun room after drill practice. Do you see the difference now, between a state of being–a human quality–which cannot be sinful, and an action, which, according to which belief system you subscribe to, may or may not be sinful. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/414 "2004-03-04T18:57:28Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Is merely being heterosexual equivalent, in sin dollars, to committing adulter with your secretary? > > If lefthandedness were a sin, is it worse in the eyes of god to pick your nose with your left hand or your right? > > Think of homosexuality as a noun, and homosex as a verb: a quality as opposed to an action. > > I’m not gonna bother with people who believe that this action or that action is sinful; that’s their own problem. But I won’t accept that a human QUALITY–lefthandedness, baldness, homosexuality, is a sin; just makes no sense. > > I was born gay. Was my existence sinful as a neonate? When did my SELF become sinful? If you say it was the first time I had sex with another boy, then you acknowledge that there was a BEFORE–not sinful, and an AFTER–sinful. Separated only by an ACTION–me and Perry jerking each other off in the gun room after drill practice. > > Do you see the difference now, between a state of being–a human quality–which cannot be sinful, and an action, which, according to which belief system you subscribe to, may or may not be sinful. I see what you’re saying, but I disagree wholeheartedly. First off, I don’t believe in “sin”. It’s a bizarre invention that serves no one. Secondly, if there were such a thing as sin, and homosexuality is not a sin, an act directly connected to that trait cannot be a sin either. I contend that you cannot separate the two. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/415 "2004-03-04T19:00:20Z")
> [@JerseyDiamond](#): > > Also, I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe Siege, my only issue is when you try to teach it as if it is Biblical. > Believe what you want, but you should be careful what you teach others. > What’s right to you may not be right to God. That is why we have the Bible to compare. That’s fair, but remember it also applies to you; just because you and your church believe that homosexuality is a sin does not automatically make it the sanctioned biblical opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Grant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grant)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/416 "2004-03-04T19:03:12Z")
**JerseyDiamond** You are too stupid to realize you just illustrated one of our points beautifully. Your daughter’s confusion was caused by YOUR hangups and YOUR inability to talk about them. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/417 "2004-03-04T19:05:08Z")
[quote] Other than making it harder to raise impressionable (christian) children, I’m not sure what harm “impressionalbe” children will suffer from knowing gay people exist–they are raised by heterosexual parents in a heterosexual society that reinforces the supremacy of heterosexuality 24/7. I think you’re giving us gay folks waaaay too much credit for our ability to mysteriously deprogram young heteros. > [@](#): > > and forcing me be tolerant of a sin that the Bible condemns, no, it does not impose anything on me. Yes, you do have to be tolerant of other people–that is the price of living in a secular society. You are free to denounce us, you can shun us if it makes you happy, but you’re not allowed to stone us to death, as Leviticus commands you to do. You can keep gay folks out of your church, but you can’t deprive us of our civil rights. This is not a theocracy, so the rules of the Bible are irrelevant to the discussion of the legal right to marry for gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/418 "2004-03-04T19:06:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > That you are still up in the air indicates that you are still thinking about it from the wrong paradigm. Please respond, if you have a minute, to my lefthanded parallel. In the middle ages (just making that up; don’t know when it was) lefthandedness was seen by some religious groups as sinful. Today we look at that idea with disdain, at best. I’m trying to make you understand that even to consider that homosexuality may be a sin is to exhibit a basic misunderstanding of what homosexuality is. I think I’m not explaining myself well. Take the prefixes “homo” and “hetero” out of my references to sexuality. That’s what I should have done in the first place. My point is that _sexuality itself_, as a function of our human existence, can be a sin. The gender of one’s partner doesn’t enter into it, in my opinion. (And thanks to **Eve** for forcing me to examine that particular belief a little more in-depth.) Does that clarify things, or make them more muddled? > [@spectrum](#): > > Anyone who puts their “relationship” with a God who may or may not exist above their children is unfit to be a parent. Anyone who would even consider doing so is unfit to be a parent. You know, I have done my dead-level best to be as tolerant and as open-minded as I know how on this board and in this thread. But bullshit like this is waaay beyond the pale, in my opinion. If you want respect for your position/beliefs/lifestyle, you damn well better be willing to give to someone else in return. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/419 "2004-03-04T19:12:29Z")
“the same”. “… be willing to give _the same_ to someone else in return.” Crud. Another perfectly good, righteously indignant post ruined by a failure to proofread. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235/420 "2004-03-04T19:20:02Z")
**Spectrum** is way off-base. Just because Christians endeavor to put God first in their lives does not make them the mother in _Carrie_. FWIW, I understand and sympathize with the posts written by **Aries28** and **Sauron**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-defend-fundies-if-we-are-at-war-with-ignorance/231235.md?page=22)