# Why did 9/11 happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331 "2005-02-28T20:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/61 "2005-03-01T22:45:12Z")
15000 Muhajadeen kicked out Soviet forces and brought about the collapse the Afghanistan, it took ten years. It doesn’t take many to break the will of the majority, you just got to have the balls to take whatevers thrown at you, and in the end you will succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/62 "2005-03-01T22:49:06Z")
**Well** : > [@](#): > > Unless you can prove Bush targetted innocent civillians for American freedom, quit making yourself look retarded. [Moderator Hat ON] Well, you can’t call people retarded in this forum. If you absolutely must flame someone, do it in the BBQ Pit forum. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/63 "2005-03-01T23:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, that’s what some Muslims are rebelling against. They hate the Saudi royal family as much as they hate the U.S., and for the same reasons. Blame Wahabbism and its constant stream of hate it constantly enduces against anyone different from them. > [@](#): > > I’m just saying that if I was an Arab Muslim, I would feel my culture and way of life seriously threatened by the U.S. and I would try to resist it. Not the way the 9/11 highjackers did it, though. They wasted their own lives and the lives of 3000 innocents to achieve nothing. I’d try to find more constructive means of resistance. No, theres only the percieved notion that we’re against their values, which at the core, are basically the same. > [@](#): > > Of course, the root cause of all of this trouble is the United States’ dependence on Middle Eastern oil. The necessity of keeping the oil flowing requires us to support repressive regimes in the interests of regional stability Which is why Iraqi democracy is exactly the thing which we should be encouraging, and democracy and freedom around the Middle East. > [@](#): > > talking about freedom out of one side of our mouths while supporting the Saudis out of the other. I personally don’t think bringing down the Saudis would bring any lasting peace, it would most likely destroy the world economy. Its good to at least bring freedom and democracy to some parts of the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/64 "2005-03-01T23:44:44Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I personally don’t think bringing down the Saudis would bring any lasting peace, it would most likely destroy the world economy. Its good to at least bring freedom and democracy to some parts of the Middle East. I’m not advocating bringing down the Saudis either. It would send the price of oil through the roof. All I’m doing is pointing out that in the case of the Middle East our ideals call for one course of action and our interests call for a different one. One of the mistakes I think the Bush administration is making is pretending that they’re congruent. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/65 "2005-03-01T23:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the mistakes I think the Bush administration is making is pretending that they’re congruent. I don’t think so, because all ideologies of repression have been pretty much tried and tested in the Middle East, the only real last bastion of lasting peace within their societies is democracy and civil society. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/66 "2005-03-02T00:15:34Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t think so, because all ideologies of repression have been pretty much tried and tested in the Middle East, the only real last bastion of lasting peace within their societies is democracy and civil society. I agree. In the long run. But in the short run the civic upheaval necessary to give birth to democracy in Saudi Arabia would play havok with the oil market. ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/67 "2005-03-02T04:50:03Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > **Well** : > [Moderator Hat ON] > Well, you can’t call people retarded in this forum. If you absolutely must flame someone, do it in the BBQ Pit forum. > [Moderator Hat OFF] I did not call anyone retarded. Many times I have seen him/her make the same remark under simillar circumstances and either people debate it and debunk it, or he/she posts it as a drive by. For him/her to keep making the same lame argument over and over seems a little slow to me. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/68 "2005-03-02T05:09:39Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > Oh, spare me! Western Civilization is in no danger whatsoever. 50,000 Americans die every year in car accidents and nobody gives a shit. We could lose a few million people and it would be just a pinprick. The terrorists have nothing. Irrelevant. Sympathy and excuse-making for an enemy of civilization is contemptible, regardless of the power level that enemy happens to wield. Your consistency test for today: Do you believe that people should just lay off Ward Churchill? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/69 "2005-03-02T05:14:59Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > Well, that’s what some Muslims are rebelling against. They hate the Saudi royal family as much as they hate the U.S., and for the same reasons. Not “reasons”, plural. Just one reason – “because those people are an obstacle to us being able to enslave everybody else” That’s their one and only gripe, and it simply is not worth dignifying with the pretense that it is any sort of legitimate grievance. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/70 "2005-03-02T05:40:25Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > I’m just saying that if I was an Arab Muslim, I would feel my culture and way of life seriously threatened by the U.S. and I would try to resist it. Not the way the 9/11 highjackers did it, though. They wasted their own lives and the lives of 3000 innocents to achieve nothing. I’d try to find more constructive means of resistance. The only ways to do that are 1)strengthen one’s own culture so that it imbues people with the character to resist the blandishments of foreign cultures, or 2)destroy foreign cultures. (Attempts at isolationism never work in the long run.) The Wahabifascists understand at some level that their version of Islam is utterly incapable of the former. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/71 "2005-03-02T05:58:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Reactionary Islam (of his brand) has no use for human rights, or the rights of women, or any **western values**. (Bolding mine) And just why _should_ they have western values considering they aren’t in the “west”? I suppose they should be Christian too? Christianity is a very important value to a majority in the “west”. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/72 "2005-03-02T06:11:31Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > As a minor quibble, the Saudis are the current royal family. It’s less confusing if you refer to the citizens as Arabs. Except all Saudis are not Arabs. I believe that “Saudi” is the accepted term for a citizen of Saudi Arabia. As such, “Saudi” is not a good term to call the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It would be like calling the USA “American”. [Quick, complete and total off-the-subject hijack: Once in college I used the term “frat” while talking to a guy who was in one. He responded in a snit, “Don’t call a fratenity a ‘frat’. You wouldn’t call your country a ‘cunt’, would you?” “No,” I replied. “But I’d call _you_ one.”] ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/73 "2005-03-02T06:12:04Z")
> [@Well](#): > > One horse wonder eh? How many times are you going to drive by with the same red herring? Don’t blame me, _you’re_ the one supporting the candidate who’s gotten 15,000+ civilians killed over some bushit about nonexistent WMDs. To say the death of 3,000 innocent New Yorkers is a tragedy while handwaving away the death of 15,000 innocent Iraqis is morally indefensible. As for the OP, I continue to be amazed at the naivety of some posters who can toss out superficial comments like “western democracy is the only hope for saving the Middle East” without pondering how threatening that sounds. I’m sure the radical Muslims have similar beliefs about how their religion is our only hope for salvation, too… ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/74 "2005-03-02T06:30:10Z")
> [@furt](#): > > God, I love the nutbar left. You can’t make this stuff up. > > Yeah, they’re all real pissed to be making trillions by selling black goo from the ground that they have no other use for. IT’S EXPLOITATION, I tells ya! You don’t think that the Western oil companies weren’t/aren’t ripping off large stacks of those trillions? You should read [this](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375753087/qid=1109743596/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3453582-9327267?v=glance&s=books) book about Iran before, during and after the fall of the Shah. It explains in great detail how The British Petroleum company (controlled by the UK government at the time) in no uncertain terms robbed the Persians of much of their current and future oil resources. You will also find it asserted in that book that the Brits didn’t act alone, they had some help from their brothers-in-pillaging, the Americans.\* You can’t make that stuff up, 'cuz it’s true. PS-- I pretty much shun the “nutbar left” too. It’s the logical, principled, visionary left (which greatly out-numbers the “nutjobs”) that one must watch out for. \*Does this mean _all_ Americans pillage? No, of course not. Don’t go simple on me just yet, this thread’s not even a full three pages yet! ---
**Author:** ![Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df788c/32.png) [@Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/75 "2005-03-02T07:32:17Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Don’t blame me, _you’re_ the one supporting the candidate who’s gotten 15,000+ civilians killed over some bushit about nonexistent WMDs. To say the death of 3,000 innocent New Yorkers is a tragedy while handwaving away the death of 15,000 innocent Iraqis is morally indefensible. You just do not get it do you? The death of 3,000 innocent New Yorkers is not a tragedy. Their murders are morally indefensible. Your personal angst against Bush does not take away from that fact. Yet you insist on correlating them with the deaths in Iraq. Even if I were so callous as to casually dismiss the deaths of any innocents, your infantile insistance that one must consider them all equally tragic or be a hypocrite is beyond obtuse. What about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed under Saddams regime? What about the reportedly over a million children dead of malnutrition under post Gulf War Saddam? And if you even think about putting the blame on the sanctions imposed by the US, I will need to remind you that 90% of the time those sanctions were enforced, they were not done so under Bush. If you have an axe to grind don’t do so at the expense of the brutality of the murder of 3,000 innocent civillians. And what really gets on my nerves is the fact that you keep trying to relate the two any chance you get no matter how many times people point out the fallacy of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/76 "2005-03-02T12:01:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think this is the classic definition of a ‘strawman’…which is what I said. To spell it out to you, the OP was trying to spin a strawman by including one part truth, one part made up crap to put ‘the other side’ in the worst possible light…‘those stupid republicans believe that a bunch of bored muslims attacked because they hate us for our freedom. Gods dey are dumb!’ Strawman. > > So, again I ask…who exactly out there believes or has said this crap (except the OP of course)? Who thinks that AQ attacked us because they were bored and they hate us because of our freedom? Do you have a snappy quote for THAT? No? Then don’t quote me again unless you find one please. Am I in Bizarro-World or is this a joke? Do you not realize that **this** is a strawman? Do you not realize that you’re acting like a total jerk in the wrong forum? Is everything you ever read or write completely oversaturated and dripping with political bias? I told you the OP wasn’t politically motivated and I meant it. I **really do** know people in real life that think they [so to speak] “got bored one day and attacked us because they hate out freedoms.” But that wasn’t really a crucial point of the OP, was it? Aren’t **you** building quite a strawman here? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/77 "2005-03-02T12:56:03Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > In a word? Technology. > etc. You seem to miss the obvious. Yes, technology places a lot of killing power in the hands of a small number of people. This is not an answer to the question of why they choose to use it. We all have the same ability. But not all of us commit 9/11 just because we can. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/78 "2005-03-02T13:15:49Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > So yeas, i’m sure the saudis are outraged at our loose morals…yet they seem to have no problem participating in our horrific society. I’d like to thank ralph124c ( was there a b & a version ?) for pointing out one big reason why fundamentalists (arab ones) have a big issue with western dominance. I’d like to point out that the US isn’t the only western “corruptor”… but certainly the biggest one. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/79 "2005-03-02T13:17:50Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > We must be careful of who “they” are in this thread. The 20 or so guys who lived in tents and caves who actually carried out the Planes Operation are all dead. It is believed that at least some of them didn’t know it was a suicide operation. That leaves the few who _did_ know, the rich Saudi former CIA associate who funded them, and the guy who conceived the atrocity in the first place, whoever that was. It is entirely possible that _nobody else_ had the slightest clue what they were planning. > > Why did this **handful** of muslims do this? The BBC made an extremely powerful documentary called [The Power of Nightmares](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283398) which charted the rise of Islamic Militancy in tandem with the rise of US NeoConservatism: watch out for a repeat on BBC America. It seems that the ultimate “reason for 9/11” began with the Muslim Brotherhood of [Sayed Qutb](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayed_Qutb), who travelled to America and saw the great, tempting dangers which liberal social freedom threatened. Seeing this as a threat to Islam, he founded an ideology _rejecting_ Western liberalism: some of his followers had varying degrees of what they considered justified action in such a cause. One of them, [Ayman Zawahiri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Zawahiri), became strongly radical, advocating literal _jihad_ against non-Muslims. _His_ follower, Osama Bin Laden, took this fight to the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. When that fight had been won, he took it to his former allies, the US. His specific reason was that US troops occupied the holy Arabian peninsula, but “because he hated our freedom” is perhaps not too absurd a summary either, really. > > Again, this was a few guys who managed to cause an international _war_ of muslim vs non-muslim with some penknives: they could arguably not have been _happier_ with the results. We should keep this in mind if anything like it [happens again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302302). Every society has its radical loonies. Assigning them as the reason for something like 9/11 in particular and Muslim terrorism in general isn’t really an answer. Anti US terrorists are funded and active because they are the extreme outliers of a distribution that consists of a mass of people who wouldn’t dream of killing random strangers but are less than pleased with the US. That is sufficient to produce the tiny trickle of funding and recruits that is all that terrorists need. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331/80 "2005-03-02T13:24:07Z")
> [@furt](#): > > God, I love the nutbar left. You can’t make this stuff up. > > Yeah, they’re all real pissed to be making trillions by selling black goo from the ground that they have no other use for. IT’S EXPLOITATION, I tells ya! Why, only a few decades ago, Saudis were wealthy and prosperous nomads living of the fat of the land; now instead of their elegant camels they have to make do with Bentleys and Filipino chauffeurs… > > Oh, sure there’s a germ of truth to; the wealth acquired by selling natural resources has only made the Arab world’s status as otherwise backwards even more apparent, and may in fact have stifled genuine cultural progress and adaptation to the modern world … but calling $40 a barrel “stealing” is unintentional humor at it’s finest. Gotta love the word “they”. They’re all this and that. So good at papering over the gaping holes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-9-11-happen/292331.md?page=5)