# Why did British Food Suck? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647 "2009-05-16T15:22:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/141 "2009-05-18T21:24:23Z")
There ain’t many folk in the UK who’d be offended by that statement. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/142 "2009-05-18T21:52:09Z")
> [@lokij](#): > > Honestly, I think based on your responses we’re simply going to have to agree to disagree. It is a fact that more fish and more varied kinds of fish were sold prior to the 16th century in Briton to the average person than until the 19th century. It is a fact that British fish consumption slowed dramatically. I cannot believe its not apparent that the Reformation changed British cooking and culture dramatically. I will provide one more cite, a link to Colin Spencer’s “British Food: An Extraordinary Thousand Years of History”.. in particular read pages 101-108, the eating of fish and in particular the old preparations of fish became associated with Catholicism and France. I’m not disputing that eating of fish declined, I am disputing the level that it decreased and the reasons given. Regarding your cite about the 90s, please see my points regarding fishing quotas and whatnot. Not to mention declining stocks. As an example, around 1990, when I started working in a chippie, the standard fish was cod. We also served haddock and plaice, but those were to be ordered on entry as we wouldn’t have any pre-cooked. They also cost more. Now if you go to chippies in that region (I have to add “that region” as different regions serve different fish. For example until I moved to London I had never encountered dogfish/“rock salmon” before) the standard fish is haddock, with plaice and cod being more expensive and made to order. This is purely down to declining fish stocks pushing the price upwards. This has happened in the past two decades. Fish in a chippie is way more expensive than it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/143 "2009-05-18T22:32:36Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > and a few older simpler dishes like Yorkshire pudding and Toad in the Hole. > > Which brings me to another point: The English seem to like (or have liked, since it’s usually the older dishes) to give their recipes charmingly disgusting names. Who could eat a runny egg after having been forcibly reminded of toads? Not sure if I’ve read this right but “Toad in the Hole” has nothing to do with runny egg! Toad in the Hole is English sausages cooked in a Yorkshire Pudding batter. Personally I like Jamie Oliver’s [version](http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/meat-recipes/toad-in-the-hole). ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/144 "2009-05-18T22:59:43Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m not disputing that eating of fish declined, I am disputing the level that it decreased and the reasons given. > > Regarding your cite about the 90s, please see my points regarding fishing quotas and whatnot. Not to mention declining stocks. As an example, around 1990, when I started working in a chippie, the standard fish was cod. We also served haddock and plaice, but those were to be ordered on entry as we wouldn’t have any pre-cooked. They also cost more. Now if you go to chippies in that region (I have to add “that region” as different regions serve different fish. For example until I moved to London I had never encountered dogfish/“rock salmon” before) the standard fish is haddock, with plaice and cod being more expensive and made to order. This is purely down to declining fish stocks pushing the price upwards. This has happened in the past two decades. Fish in a chippie is way more expensive than it used to be. The stats I gave for fish consumption were just over 10 years old and as I said the trend in Britain DESPITE plunging fish stocks and rising prices has been an overall increase in the consumption of fish and seafood. This has been going on since about 1980. My point.. my original point, was that the Reformation upset established eating habits and eradicated a long tradition of cooking that had evolved essentially since the Norman invasion. Puritan values displaced long standing traditions in many areas of life, including cooking. I pointed to the decline in consumption of fish and seafood as a noteworthy example because it illustrates the kinds of social changes I’m discussing and exacerbates the already more limited local ingredient options available in the British Isles. By the time dining trends moved away from puritan values the dishes that were considered 'British" had changed, others that might have persisted in Britain and evolved had England stayed a Catholic nation were re-imported but identified as 'French". ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/145 "2009-05-18T23:19:01Z")
> [@lokij](#): > > The stats I gave for fish consumption were just over 10 years old and as I said the trend in Britain DESPITE plunging fish stocks and rising prices has been an overall increase in the consumption of fish and seafood. This has been going on since about 1980. My point.. my original point, was that the Reformation upset established eating habits and eradicated a long tradition of cooking that had evolved essentially since the Norman invasion. Puritan values displaced long standing traditions in many areas of life, including cooking. I pointed to the decline in consumption of fish and seafood as a noteworthy example because it illustrates the kinds of social changes I’m discussing and exacerbates the already more limited local ingredient options available in the British Isles. By the time dining trends moved away from puritan values the dishes that were considered 'British" had changed, others that might have persisted in Britain and evolved had England stayed a Catholic nation were re-imported but identified as 'French". The ten years ago stats were supposed to show that other countries, that fish in different waters and traditionally eat different fish, were eating far more fish than Brits. Regarding the Puritans, I think it is a gross misrepresentation of what went on during the Reformation. The Puritans never had the stranglehold over the country necessary to do what you claim they did. Indeed that’s why they upped sticks and moved to the new world, so they could continue their intolerance there. Indeed, although Wikipedia is often frowned upon around here, if you read the Wikipedia entry for the English Reformation The Puritans are but a mere footnote, a single paragraph in the penultimate section of the article. > **[English Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation)** > > Electors of Saxony > Holy Roman Emperors > Building Even better is the page of the Scottish Reformation. There is not a single mention of Puritans there: > **[Scottish Reformation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Reformation)** > > Electors of Saxony > Holy Roman Emperors > Building ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/146 "2009-05-18T23:28:52Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > > [@chowder](#): > > > > I can see it now…couple of Hollands meat pies > > I believe you misspellt “Pukka”. 😃 In the “dubious link” category, former (or dormant) Doper **curly chick** has recently got herself a place on the pie tasting panel for Hollands Pies. Not a bad gig, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/147 "2009-05-19T00:45:55Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I think the cuisine I’ve heard people complain about was distinctly the English, rather than British. I’ve only ever heard one person complain about the food in Ireland and Scotland, and he was Armenian, had never been to either place, and spent considerable time and effort before each meal trying to get “enough” tabasco out of the bottle and onto his food. > > That said, I myslf have never been to England. My immediate thoughts of “bad English food” ran to boiled beef, organ meats and baked beans. But when I think of English “cuisine” I think of Gordon Whosefratz the Screamer (I’ve got two of his books, love his cooking, but alas, that will always be his name to me . . . damn Hell’s Kitchen!) and a few older simpler dishes like Yorkshire pudding and Toad in the Hole. > > Which brings me to another point: The English seem to like (or have liked, since it’s usually the older dishes) to give their recipes charmingly disgusting names. Who could eat a runny egg after having been forcibly reminded of toads? > > The point above about the spice trade is well taken. Although I believe it was primarily black pepper and tea, I’d love to hear an historian’s view. In the few English recipe’s I’ve used, the only herbs have been parsley and sage. Typical example: [Lincolnshire\_Recipes](http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~englin/foods.htm) > > I also confess to an American’s aversion to organ meats. I always supposed that they were eaten in England because the muscle meats stood up to transport better, and most meat was grown for the export trade. But it sounds like that’s either an olde or entirely erroneous idea. > > Either way, I haven’t really seen here any of the defensive players naming a list of what “English Cuisine” is in their minds, and I’d honestly love to hear it. > > Please, fight my ignorance. What is modern English cuisine? [This](http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/food.html) is from a primary school, but it’s a good short summary of what traditional foods are still eaten here (it misses only a couple; it also includes a description of toad in the hole). Modern English cuisine in terms of either what people actually eat, is more varied: lots of pasta (really, tons of this), pizza, curries, sandwiches, burgers and chips, jacket potatoes and stir-fries. Modern cuisine in terms of what contestants make on Masterchef includes pretty much every type of food imaginable and many fusion foods like curried shepherd’s pie. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/148 "2009-05-19T01:20:50Z")
> [@Rayne\_Man](#): > > Re fish, don’t forget that oysters were eaten in vast quantities a couple of hundred years ago. They were looked on as poor peoples food and there are supposedly vast piles of their shells in the rubbish dumps that surround London. They’re a staple of medieval archaeological sites, big piles of the flaky white things, easy to dig through. Irrc something bad happened to the oyster beds or we’d still be eating them today. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/149 "2009-05-19T01:26:41Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > They’re a staple of medieval archaeological sites, big piles of the flaky white things, easy to dig through. Irrc something bad happened to the oyster beds or we’d still be eating them today. Probably the sanme bad thing that happened to the oyster beds in New York harbor: pollution and overfishing. There’s some movement to restore the NYC oyster beds though. > **[Oyster Restoration in New York Harbor | The Leonard Lopate Show | WNYC](https://www.wnyc.org/story/58022-oyster-restoration-in-new-york-harbor/)** > > Before the turn of the 20th century, the bottom of New York Harbor was covered in oyster reefs. Because of pollution and overfishing, the oysters all but disappeared, but with the recent cleanup of the Harbor, they are returning. The River Project is... ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/150 "2009-05-19T04:38:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > None of which feature salted beef, turnips or pickled veggies. _Other posters_ have mentioned turnips as part of a roast dinner. Did you miss the Branston pickle on your ploughman’s? And corned beef is hardly rare in English cuisine, as alluded to by several posters. > [@Princhester](#): > > I ate out at good pub after good pub featuring traditional British cuisine and by doing so did not eat at places where the “trends in the high end” or the “big trends came from”, which is what you were talking about earlier. Good for you, you’re still completely missing my point. That being not “what people eat in Britain today”, but “this is the (outdated) global perception (referred to by “English cuisine”) of what people ate in Britain before the relatively recent developments in international commerce and cross-cultural cooking that have considerably changed the national diet, the parameters of which have been studied and defined by food scholars who are not Aussie rules football moms who used to be foodies and ate at some pubs in London once but does include the traditional, historical heritage of dishes invented in England and passed down through the generations based on the readily available ingredients.” It’s really fine with me if you disagree about what exactly defines traditional British/English cuisine, but you aren’t doing that, you’re just redefining “national cuisine” to mean “what people (especially I) eat in that country”. And you’re wrong to do so. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/151 "2009-05-19T06:49:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I believe you misspellt “Pukka”. 😃 In the NW of Merrie England it’s Hollands or nuffink matey. Pukka pies are sold in some lower class chippies;) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/152 "2009-05-19T09:50:57Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > In the NW of Merrie England it’s Hollands or nuffink matey. > > Pukka pies are sold in some lower class chippies;) I believe we may have to fight over this. To the death. With pies. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/153 "2009-05-19T09:56:15Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > _Other posters_ have mentioned turnips as part of a roast dinner. Did you miss the Branston pickle on your ploughman’s? And corned beef is hardly rare in English cuisine, as alluded to by several posters. Here’s \*your \*list again: Shepherd’s pie, bangers and mash, beans on toast, Yorkshire puddings, beef Wellington, ploughman’s, fish and chips, etc. Try as you might, there is no missing the fact that you are now scrabbling to find some way to justify the suggestion that pickled veggies and turnips are a major feature, as you suggested earlier. > [@](#): > > Good for you, you’re still completely missing my point. Remind me again how “trends in the high end” or where the “big trends came from” fits into your point. I’ve lost track. That was, if you refer back, what I initially pulled you up about. You’re attempting to segue into some other point now that you’ve realised your initial post was a crock, but some of us remember. > [@](#): > > Aussie rules football moms who used to be foodies and ate at some pubs in London once Wait, I’m lost. Who is the Aussie rules football mom who used to be a foodie and ate at some pubs in London once and where do they fit into this? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/154 "2009-05-19T10:01:36Z")
I’d never eaten a turnip (outside of Branston’s Pickle) until I moved to Sweden. You know what? They’re quite tasty. Mix up a few root vegetables, sprinkle some oil over them with a few herbs and spices of your choosing and roast in the oven. FANTASTIC. Home-delivered organic vegetable boxes have revolutionised my diet and probably made it a metric arseload healthier. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/155 "2009-05-19T10:38:16Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > _Other posters_ have mentioned turnips as part of a roast dinner. Did you miss the Branston pickle on your ploughman’s? And corned beef is hardly rare in English cuisine, as alluded to by several posters. You’re mistaking “is available in shops” for “English cuisine”. Twinkies are available in American shops. Does that make them a staple of American cuisine? As for turnips… well, as you say, in Branston’s pickle only. Cheap sandwich fodder, mainly, much like peanut butter. Which, again, has no relation to cuisine. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/156 "2009-05-19T14:14:47Z")
Not a mention of carrots and swedes, mashed together with salt, pepper and butter. Or roasted parsnips Deebloodylishus ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/157 "2009-05-19T14:39:21Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > And corned beef is hardly rare in English cuisine, as alluded to by several posters. Yeah, well we’ve been informed that English people eat cold canned tomatoes, so I’m taking assertions in this thread with a pinch of salt, as it were. I haven’t seen corned beef since I was a child 25 years ago, and then it was in some weird concoction my Kiwi dad made up. It most certainly is rare. It’s about as culturally relevant as Spam. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/158 "2009-05-19T14:56:22Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Yeah, well we’ve been informed that English people eat cold canned tomatoes, so I’m taking assertions in this thread with a pinch of salt, as it were. Hah! Yep. Some of the claims in this thread are hilarious. So, to get things straight, we’ve been told by people who know better than we, the people doing the actual eating, do that we: 1. Eat turnips a lot 2. Eat cold canned tomatoes 3. Shepherds pie has a nasty crust 4. Don’t eat fish 5. Consider a salad to be half an iceberg lettuce with a sachet of salad cream 6. Boil meat 7. Boil everything else 8. Consider mushy peas to be a staple diet item Did I miss anything? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/159 "2009-05-19T15:57:04Z")
> [@Mycroft\_Holmes](#): > > Some of the “delicious” :dubious: traditional Dutch foods are things like: > > [Stamppot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamppot), [Hutspot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutspot), [Boerenkool](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boerenkool) met [Rookworst](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rookworst), and the absolutely horrid: [Bitterballen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterballen), [Kroketten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroket), and [Frikandellen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frikandel). Those do, indeed, look delicious. OK, maybe not the Huspot. But everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647/160 "2009-05-19T16:27:25Z")
Although we don’t eat turnips as such, we do eat a close relative, namely the swede or rutabaga. This is an essential part of a haggis dinner where it is known as “neeps” north of the border. We occasionally eat swede, usually mixed with mashed potato. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-british-food-suck/496647.md?page=9)