OK - bad time to go offline, evidently - so in no particular order:
shish kebab comes from the Turkish for skewered meat. And you don’t really cook it on a spit.
I mentioned burying the pot in coals.
A slowcooker or crockpot is designed to avoid having the effect of one heat source underneath. I’m thinking of the electric ones, by the way.
Braising and boiling - a difference of degree, not of cooking style, really. Also, in stews which needed the collagen really dealt with, or which contained dried pulses or barley (very traditional in British stews), they need a certain temperature.
A large and thick-bottomed pot may be able to provide some consistency of internal temperature, possibly including if you banked up the embers and let it cook over several hours, but who’s going to give a serf a pot with that much iron in it? I found it difficult to roast things consistently in a Le Creuset casserole with two large gas rings as low as they would go underneath. If serfs had better pots than that, I’d put up with the fleas! Terracotta/earthenware pots are, in my experience, even more prone to hot spots. Also, you’re ignoring the bit where I mentioned how little actual meat (especially reasonable cuts or even pieces of any size as opposed to off-cuts or offal) people that poor were eating.
I wasn’t trying to say that British people in the middle ages only ever boiled their food. Just that for some people, some of the time, circumstances or the time or ingredients available made it more practical.
As for a defence of British cooking (as per the original discussion): a meal is worth a thousand words. Come on over.
Sort of … many people kept farmers traditions and you eat everything that is remotely edible on a critter. I detest scrapple and head cheese, but I loves me some chicken/pork/beef heart when cooked properly. mrAru likes tongue and menudo/tripe. We both like liver sausage but not cooked plain liver. I have eaten pork brains and they are not scary =) Neither of us likes kidneys though…
A proper dutch oven has a rim around the lid and you pile some coals on the hearth, and put the pot on it, then you put the bread/pie/cake/roast inside, and cover it. Place coals on the lid. Let cook undisturbed for the proper amount of time [depends on what you cook]
Having recently bought the Charcuterie bible, I was highly amused to discover Americans call brawn “head cheese”. Top naming. But yeah, I’m skeptical about the supposed offal taboo. If it exists, I’d be surprised if it were much less recent than the British offal disappearance. I think if anything it’s a function of the sudden availability of forced-production prime cuts, and a consequent marketing-encouraged squeamishness relating to “weird” bits of the animal. I think it’s just the ripples of industrialised agriculture working themselves out.
On a related note, home-made bacon is fucking awesome. The best bacon ever.
I’m late returning to the thread, but I found the Shepherd’s Pie recipe that I used last time and thought I’d share it. Obviously it’s in metric, and I used lamb mince rather than beef (if you use beef then it’s called a Cottage Pie).
There are degrees of food taboos (you see this with Jewish food taboos, too). It’s not utterly taboo like eating dog meat, but offal definitely has a bad reputation among Americans, and trying to get a lot of us to try it would be hard.
Who cooks over a fire? You cook over coals. You adjust your temperature based on distance. You cover pots with coals. And I’ve never had a problem with earthenware casseroles - maybe you need a tagine or a nice french cassole.
I’ve done lots of medieval-style cooking, using medieval recipes. Some of that is over coals - you’ll be amazed what you can do with an earthenware casserole and a frying pan. I can bake bread in my casserole over the coals.
Do you know how much fat is in the average goose? It’d be a very poor peasant indeed who didn’t keep any livestock.
Have you ever heard of butter? Or olive oil? Neither of these were particularly reserved for the lords and ladies in the areas where they were produced. So in Merry England, I’m sure it would be butter or goosefat for frying.
Mate… have you ever tried to grow an olive tree in England? It wouldn’t go so well. Medieval recipes such as survive in writing tend to be medicinal or the kind of recipes of which people with a bit more money/land/livestock etc were partaking. I’m talking about the peasantry, the vast majority of the population. We’re talking about the origins of ordinary food such as has been passed down through the generations, not Cardinal Wolsey’s Great Feast. (Have you seen the menu for that? That was some party.) We have a goose every Christmas, thanks, so I know exactly how much fat there is, but in this hypothetical existence as a serf, you have no goose. You are poor. And if you’re not keeping livestock, where are you getting the milk to make the butter?
To be fair, I think we could probably surprise each other with what we can do in a pan over a heat source! I have also cooked over fires, and as I said spent fourteen months with no means of cooking other than two gas rings, so I’m pretty inventive. It’s not that I don’t know about cooking over coals or adjusting the height of your pot; when I said that things boil, I didn’t mean that they always come up to a roaring, boiling-over point. Just that if people wanted to think about why boiling was a pretty common way to cook, they could do worse than bear in mind the basic dynamics of a pot-fluid-fire combo.
I tried steak and kidney pie once at an “English” pub. The steak was OK, but the kidneys were like liver to the tenth power. I was still tasting it the next day, and not in a good way.
I wonder if the kidneys weren’t actually kidney then, or if they weren’t fresh/properly prepared. Were they chewy? They shouldn’t have been, and they shouldn’t have had a noticeably *strong *flavour at all. Beef kidneys can be a little stronger (than pork kidneys, which I tend to use for my pie), but not stronger than liver, and definitely not tasting them the next day. Very strange. I think perhaps you’ve fallen victim to the same thing as so many of the other posters in this thread: food in touristy places is NOT good food (and I think that’s pretty true anywhere in the world).
There is still a culture of wartime food amongst the older people in the UK. Liver and Onions. Food which had to be eaten when rationing was on because we had no choice. This goes further back with things like Steak and Kidney pies. Usually with little steak and lots of kidney. Previous to wartime, it would simply be a case of widespread poverty making those traditional.
Nowadays, like anywhere, British food is more defined by its ethnic groups. Indian, Turkish and Chinese food dominate (and chinese food varies from country to country).
Same could be said of chinese and mexican food in the US.
However, English food, being that England is a sub country of Britain, tends to be bland. It traditionally is “boil or roast it till you can’t do it anymore”. Roast Beef. Boiled potatoes. Yorkshire pudding. Not a lot of spice. Apple crumble (without spice)
The smaller countries in the Uk tend to have more taste in their food, and this is true of some northern english dishes. They tend to use onions more and spices also. Haggis is an example of spice in the food, it is similar in taste to black pudding. Welsh food tends to be less of the boil and roast it kind too…
However, one case which can be said of “british food sucks”, is you tend to pay a lot and get a small portion of food. This doesn’t vary across the uk. Portions tend not to be generous.
Traditional English food isn’t bland. I don’t know why you think people wouldn’t have put any spices into their food. Certainly some spices which didn’t come in until we’d done a bit of exploring were out of reach of the average person (in terms of price and availability) for a long time, but bearing in mind that the Romans were bringing some spices in 2000 years ago, including ones traditional in their North African outposts, then we had the crusades into the Middle East, then the explorers, then the empire, etc etc, it’s a little unfair to say that food would have been bland. Not to mention the huge variety of native herbs, barks and roots which always have grown here. Onions are a very traditional part of English cookery, as is wild garlic. Also you claim Yorkshire pudding is bland. You obviously aren’t making it right; even on its own it should be richly flavoursome of eggs, herbs and good milk, but of course you don’t eat it on its own; you eat it with gravy before your meat and with jam, custard etc after, in the traditional usage. As for haggis being more spiced than traditional English food - have you ever had a proper English sausage? Or real old-fashioned cured bacon? They can be highly flavoured with all sorts of things, from borage and chervil to juniper berries. Also, haggis (which is Scottish) tastes nothing like black pudding, or indeed white pudding, in my opinion.
Things which are overcooked are just badly cooked; it makes no difference where you come from.
You told Argent Towers that he didn’t know the difference between English and British. I don’t really see anything in his post that suggests that.
British portion size is not often vast, but if I’ve ever found it inadequate I’ve sent it back. Actually, I would, but I don’t think I’ve ever had to. How much food do you need, really? In a decent pub-type chain restaurant, you might pay £9 for a main course of meat, carbs, vegetables and usually some sort of salad. In my favourite restaurant, just by Waterloo Station, you pay about £10-12 for a main course. In a really good London restaurant, you might pay £25 or more, but you’re paying for the experience of being there as much as the superior skill or fame of the chef and the quality of the ingredients, and you know that before you order. You could just as well point out that British people when they go to the US are usually shocked by the size of portions over there. We find American meals, generally, huge and unfinishable. Over here, you don’t expect to take anything home; in fact I was in my twenties and out with American friends before I ever asked for anything to be wrapped up for me. Again, this complaint is more a function of eating at tourist places than a general indictment of British food. Tourist places will rip you off any way they can.