# Why did college have to become the new high school?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 10, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138 "2015-06-10T02:40:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/21 "2015-06-10T17:23:48Z")
> [@Macca26](#):
>
> **FuzzyDunlop** , I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen, “This is an entry level position” and, “1-3 years experience required” (or even “2-5 years experience required”) in the same job listing. Entry level no longer means what it should in the job world. I’d say over 50% of so-called “entry level jobs” have an experience requirement listed.
>
> I think internships are at the root, exploitative. But putting that aside, you basically only have 4 years to land an internship and be able to pay your way while you work without earning cash (and not counting the fact that there are usually far less internships than college students). That is not a hurdle surmountable by everyone and I don’t think it should be expected of everyone looking to go into a specific field.
>
> I’ll be happier when “Entry Level Position” really means entry level again and companies are willing to do a little basic training rather than foist it off on experience requirements.
I didn’t say it’s not difficult. I said there’s a clear path to beginning a career. There’s not some sneaky catch-22 keeping anyone from ever landing a job, in spite of however many incongruous ads you saw.
> [@purplehorseshoe](#):
>
> Hear, hear, **Macca26**.
>
> People who express opinions like those of \*\*FuzzyDunlop \*\*assume that this [del]“just get a job, you bum!”[/del] “apply to entry level jobs that don’t require experience” attitude is acceptable simply because they haven’t HAD to apply for entry-level jobs in the current environment, and have no idea that their neat, pat little solution doesn’t exist in the real world anymore.
Not only that, people live me have never even met anyone under the age of 25 in decades. Let alone young people who’ve graduated in the last 5 years and landed entry level jobs in their field. Those type of people don’t even exist in the current environment so obviously I don’t know lots of them.
According to a Pew study, in 2012 36% of 22-27 year old degree holders had “good jobs”, compared to about half in the 90s. So statistically it’s always been a bit difficult, has become slightly more difficult, but is still extremely possible even in the real world today.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/22 "2015-06-10T18:36:03Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> College is the new high school in that students are graduating from high school barely capable of composing a coherent sentence, perform basic arithmetic, or locate major countries on a map. The high school diploma means very little as a measure of academic skill, so if any academic skill is required for a job, seeking a college graduate makes sense.
It is true that, in recent years, many more college students are having to take developmental math and English, because they are unable to handle college-level math and/or are unable to read and write at a level demanded by college courses. I don’t know how much of this is because of (some!) high schools being less rigorous and more willing to pass kids who haven’t mastered high-school level material, and how much of it is that more people are going to college than used to.
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### Author:  [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/23 "2015-06-10T18:51:32Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#):
>
> I didn’t say it’s not difficult. I said there’s a clear path to beginning a career. There’s not some sneaky catch-22 keeping anyone from ever landing a job, in spite of however many incongruous ads you saw.
>
> Not only that, people live me have never even met anyone under the age of 25 in decades. Let alone young people who’ve graduated in the last 5 years and landed entry level jobs in their field. Those type of people don’t even exist in the current environment so obviously I don’t know lots of them.
>
> According to a Pew study, in 2012 36% of 22-27 year old degree holders had “good jobs”, compared to about half in the 90s. So statistically it’s always been a bit difficult, has become slightly more difficult, but is still extremely possible even in the real world today.
For every catch-22 there is a reduction in actual possibilities left. And there are a few catch-22’s out on the market. I ran into them quite a lot actually. Hell back in 2009, the economy is tanked and everyone knows it, my first job out of college, and I’m STILL seriously being given the side-eye and dismissal in interviews for applying to jobs I’m “overqualified” for in an effort to get any job to support myself. Right. As though my rent understands that I should only be applying to jobs “worthy” of my education. Yeah, OK. Except obviously I wouldn’t be applying to this job if that option was available. If that’s not another catch-22 I don’t know what is. When a considerable amount of jobs have these opposing standards that cause catch-22s, it’s not just the fault of the person applying, but the companies as well.
Mostly I just want companies to make an effort to be transparent in their job listings and to put an earnest effort into putting a reasonable amount of true entry level jobs out there, because there are few true entry level jobs. You say, “just go find one”, I say “I haven’t seen a true entry level job in my specific field in MONTHS”.
If it requires years of experience, these companies shouldn’t call it, “entry level”, call it a “junior position”. Don’t BS me. And they should make an effort to put at least a few truly entry-level job openings out there and be willing to train for all of two weeks. What with the record-breaking profits so many companies are posting I think they can handle a miniscule amount of loss here and there. But who are we kidding, you can’t expect anything from them in concern to fellow man, and that’s a real shame.
Guess this is all pretty off topic by now though…
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### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/24 "2015-06-10T19:22:47Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#):
>
> This is an idea that goes around every single time in every single thread about education. It’s tiresome in my opinion; nobody ever has any decent cites ever to point to getting an education in a nontechnical major as leading to poverty. Sure, some college graduates with with what people consider to be fluff majors do not end up with decent jobs and some plumbers make six figures. By that logic though, some high school drop outs make millions of dollars (Quentin Tarantino, the guy who started 1-800-got-junk). Those are called outliers. To focus on outliers and anomalies as a way to analyze a broad situation is ridiculous.
>
> Every statistic I have seen shows that on the whole over time getting a college degree no matter what the major is a good investment, and the increased earning potential as well as the likelihood of achieving that potential is greater with a college education no matter what the major. Also, for graduate school your undergraduate major can be a wide variety of things - this is true for law school, medical school, business school etc. Trade/Vocational school does not help one bit for going into these professions but majoring in underwater basket weaving would.
>
> I’m also tired of hearing this dribble because of the fact that I have work for many years in blue collar jobs, and none of my coworkers with children encouraged their kids to go the vocational route as long as their was the remote possibility of them having college aptitude. This was true for union guys, non-union guys, self employed tradesmen etc.
Getting the degree does not lead to poverty, true, but the decisions made by the degree-getter often lead to financial dissatisfaction. A Philosophy PhD, for example, does not make you unemployable in and of itself, but once your heart is set on a career in academia, you are unlikely to earn enough as an adjunct to even keep up with your student loan payments if you made the mistake of going into debt for this purpose. A lucky/smart/well-connected few will become professors, but the prospects for the rest are not good and even the professors are often not paid much. They aren’t outliers or anomalies and it isn’t because it is a “fluff” degree.
And yes, you can get a Bachelor’s degree in whatever and then go on to get a law degree, medical degree, etc. So what? That only further reinforces the lack of cash value of the original degree, plus think about the fact that during those ten years of education the person who did not go to college may be earning money at work, not going into debt.
I am not opposed in the slightest to people choosing to go to college, but the idea that it is the only way to get a good job or make good money is simply false and people who ought to know better need to quit telling high school students this lie. It isn’t vocational school and if you are only there because you think it is a necessity to get a job with the salary you desire, you are there for the wrong reason. College is for learning, not job training.
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### Author:  [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/25 "2015-06-10T19:34:06Z")
To answer the original question, college had to become the new high school because high schools have failed. Of course this may not be their fault, because junior highs and middle schools are sending them unprepared students, slid through by elementary schools with no standards. It is probably a side effect of capitalism, as marketers have convinced people they need constant entertainment and arithmetic simply cannot compete with passively viewing a Disney cartoon and drinking a Coke.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/26 "2015-06-10T21:05:11Z")
> [@TSBG](#):
>
> “Better quality” products for cheaper prices but declining middle/lower class wages is a benefit to the rich and no one else.
>
> I’m not a complete fanatic about this. Japanese car makes showed the U.S. a way to make better more reliable cars, cheaper. Then again, Japanese workers benefit from a more comprehensive social welfare system than Democratic politicians dare dream of.
>
> Or let’s take clothes. Is it an absolute good that Americans have access to the cheapest possible T-shirts, even if American textile workers go jobless? My cheap clothing comes at the expense of someone else’s job, and makes the economy worse for all of us.
cars are a bad example to make your point.
IN the late 50’s and early 60’s American car buyers showed interest in economy cars. Every time that Detroit produced an economy car with in one to two years the car began to grow into the large production cars of America. Ever see a 56 “T” Bird compare it to a 58 “T” bird. The 64 Mustang started out as a economy car and ended up a muscle car. And so on. The bigger cars had a higher profit so Detroit walked away from the little cars and gave no competition to imported cars. Think of the size of the early imports. Honda, BMW, Toyota, VW, and a few others. The funny thing is while still making the small economy car the imports are now also making BIG cars and trucks.
Also it is not just lower pay that many foreign manufactures pay. They are not loaded down with taxes and other fees. Nor do they have the safety of pollution regulations that the US does.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/27 "2015-06-10T21:21:48Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#):
>
> When I was a youth, just thinking about having a career and going to college, I could never figure out why people thought this was some paradox of the universe. I thought “Why on earth wouldn’t those people be applying to entry level jobs that _don’t_ require experience?”
>
> Now that my own career is well established, and I’ve hired people and even owned my own business… I still feel pretty much the same way.
>
> .
The year was 1970 and I just graduated from the Maritime Academy shipping jobs were hard to come by. They were laying up US flagged ships every week.
I would apply for one job and be told that they would not hire me without experience. I could go down the street to a job that paid 5 cents less per and be told with my training they would not hire me because I was over trained and would not stay.
I was able to land a Christmas job as a stock boy for Blue Chip Stamp Co. I worked there before college so they knew me. Green Giant was looking for an refrigeration and boiler Engineer. I applied but was told that the maintenance department would not hire me because I was over trained. 2 weeks later I got a call an offered a job in the production department. After the chief engineer saw me around the plant and moving up in production he offered me a job as an oiler. And I started to work my way up. I was told that I would get the job I origionaly applied for the next month when the 12-8 operator retired.
But because I was making way less as a production maintenance man I had signed up on the Operating Engineers out of work list. I got a call from the union. The Salinas Hospital had a boiler engineer retiring in a month and they could not find a qualified replacement. And I took the job. If Green Giant had hired me the job that they ended up offering me I would not have been on the out of work list. Their attitude about experience cost them in the long run. I heard they had to hire two guys to replace the retiring guy. One to operate the boiler room and the other to operate the engine room.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/28 "2015-06-10T21:25:55Z")
> [@AnaMen](#):
>
> Skilled labor still pays well and does not require college, whereas some college degrees lead only to the starvation wages of a lowly adjunct. College is not vocational school or a sure-fire path to a high salary, yet high school students are being told it is the only way they will ever be able to support themselves, get degrees in subjects that seldom lead to jobs, then work retail jobs and bitterly complain.
>
> College is the new high school in that students are graduating from high school barely capable of composing a coherent sentence, perform basic arithmetic, or locate major countries on a map. The high school diploma means very little as a measure of academic skill, so if any academic skill is required for a job, seeking a college graduate makes sense.
At one time I worked at a department store. Many people in my trade do not have a college education infact most don’t. The store had department heads that had masters degrees in retail sales. My pay was twice theirs. If you are going to college pick your major carefully.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/29 "2015-06-10T21:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=I’m also tired of hearing this dribble because of the fact that I have work for many years in blue collar jobs, and none of my coworkers with children encouraged their kids to go the vocational route as long as their was the remote possibility of them having college aptitude. This was true for union guys, non-union guys, self employed tradesmen etc.[/QUOTE]
In fact how many of the trade unions have some sort of scholarship program. I know ours does and makes a major push to keep it going.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/30 "2015-06-11T05:11:11Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#):
>
> At one time I worked at a department store. Many people in my trade do not have a college education infact most don’t. The store had department heads that had masters degrees in retail sales. My pay was twice theirs. If you are going to college pick your major carefully.
At one time? At one time there were plenty of good factory/trade jobs which lead to a relatively good middle class life. And I’m sure a few of them exist today; and I acknowledge the fact that there are some trade jobs that pay better than some jobs that people with degrees have - in fact, I know some people personally for whom that is the case. None of this, however, negates the fact that as an investment for the future going to college is much more likely to have a far greater return over time than going into the trades. Going to college opens up doors, whether we as Americans like to acknowledge it or not, having a college degree puts one into a different class in the eyes of many - a college education goes beyond just learning skill a, b or c.
And just to go back to an earlier example; the lowest paid least experienced Philosophy Phd [makes about the same](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_of_Philosophy_(PhD)/Salary) as the [average experienced plumber](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary) and after a few years experience make much more on average.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2015, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/31 "2015-06-11T08:38:02Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#):
>
> At one time? At one time there were plenty of good factory/trade jobs which lead to a relatively good middle class life. And I’m sure a few of them exist today; and I acknowledge the fact that there are some trade jobs that pay better than some jobs that people with degrees have - in fact, I know some people personally for whom that is the case. None of this, however, negates the fact that as an investment for the future going to college is much more likely to have a far greater return over time than going into the trades. Going to college opens up doors, whether we as Americans like to acknowledge it or not, having a college degree puts one into a different class in the eyes of many - a college education goes beyond just learning skill a, b or c.
>
> And just to go back to an earlier example; the lowest paid least experienced Philosophy Phd [makes about the same](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_of_Philosophy_(PhD)/Salary) as the [average experienced plumber](http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary) and after a few years experience make much more on average.
Education never hurts in life. But I know too many people with college degrees that make a lot less that those in the trades. If you age going to go to college to further you in the professional world pick you major carefully. I did. but I do have to question it some times. 5 years I paid to go to college 3 of them were full time at the academy so I could not get a job to help pay for college. When I came ashore I worked with men who came up the hawspipe. And in the last 20 years most of the men I worked with went through the apprentice program. They took night classes for 4 years fully paid for by the employer and worked 40 hours a week and received 55% of journeyman’s pay the first year and increased each year. They learned in the real world didn’t cost them anything, and received a good wage to get on the job training.
Not sure who made the better choice.
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### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/32 "2015-06-11T11:57:47Z")
Interesting piece by Thomas Friedman, [How to Beat the Bots](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/opinion/thomas-friedman-how-to-beat-the-bots.html), discussing job requirements re: college degrees.
> [@](#):
>
> So here’s an interesting statistic from a 2014 labor survey by [burning-glass.com](http://burning-glass.com): 65 percent of new job postings for executive secretaries and executive assistants now call for a bachelor’s degree, but “only 19 percent of those currently employed in these roles have a B.A.”
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-college-have-to-become-the-new-high-school/722138/33 "2015-06-11T15:27:35Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#):
>
> The funny thing is while still making the small economy car the imports are now also making BIG cars and trucks.
It’s not really funny at all. Many American buyers still want big cars and trucks. Thing is, nobody else does, so they build those vehicles in the US. The Toyota Tundra is built in San Antonio and isn’t sold outside North America, for example.
> [@](#):
>
> Also it is not just lower pay that many foreign manufactures pay. They are not loaded down with taxes and other fees. Nor do they have the safety of pollution regulations that the US does.
Seriously? Taxes and pollution regulations are _far_ more of a burden in Japan, Germany, and other major auto manufacturing countries.
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