# Why did David Niven never become Sir David? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 13, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252 "2014-10-13T23:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/1 "2014-10-13T23:43:29Z")
I watched part of Murder by Death yesterday, watching the very flower of British fake nobility, Sir Alec Guinness, Dame Maggie Smith, Sir Peter Sellers, Dame Elsa Lanchester, and Sir David Niven trying to make the best of a dreadful Neil Simon script and the presence of James Coco, and rather than punish myself further I checked those five to see who outranked whom, when what to my wondering eyes did appear but neither Mrs Laughton nor Mr Niven had been properly honored by their queen and country. Maybe Elsa didn’t haul much money back to Old Blighty, but David certainly did. He also did his part in the war, unlike many of his fellows, and did his part to keep Princess Margaret happy, like many of his fellows. So why no CBE? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/2 "2014-10-13T23:49:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I watched part of Murder by Death yesterday, watching the very flower of British fake nobility, Sir Alec Guinness, Dame Maggie Smith, Sir Peter Sellers, Dame Elsa Lanchester, and Sir David Niven trying to make the best of a dreadful Neil Simon script and the presence of James Coco, and rather than punish myself further I checked those five to see who outranked whom, when what to my wondering eyes did appear but neither Mrs Laughton nor Mr Niven had been properly honored by their queen and country. Maybe Elsa didn’t haul much money back to Old Blighty, but David certainly did. He also did his part in the war, unlike many of his fellows, and did his part to keep Princess Margaret happy, like many of his fellows. So why no CBE? Looking back he probably should have. I suspect it was something to do with him living abroad for most of his career. Whilst in Hollywood this was less of an issue, but by the 1960’s or 70’s he was an out and out tax exile on the continent. A touchy subject for British governments of the period. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/3 "2014-10-13T23:54:16Z")
I’m no expert, but when a British performer lives most of their post-success life outside of the UK, doesn’t that tend to mean they won’t be on the Honours List? (Niven doesn’t seem to have lived in the UK after his career was well underway). There was the thing with his first wife dying after a fall down some stairs, too. Perhaps there were unpleasant rumors? eta: didn’t see Fuzzy wuzzy’s post due to researching. But, yes: probably the tax exile thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/4 "2014-10-14T01:16:53Z")
I never thought he was all that good an actor. Enjoyable sure, but nothing special. And servicing HRH Margaret is always going to make Lizzie sore. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/5 "2014-10-14T01:23:43Z")
Hey! I saw MURDER BY DEATH at an actual old-fashioned moom pitcher theater when it came out, when I was 14 years old. Laughed my arse off. I still think it’s funny as hell. Incredible cast of character actors. Truman Capote’s best film performance, because it’s Truman Capote’s only film performance. “…Doors and windows will automatically open at dawn, and one of us here will be one million dollars richer, and one of us will be going to the gas chamber to be hanged.” But I agree that Coco sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/6 "2014-10-14T01:44:01Z")
I don’t understand. Why would anybody want to steal a dead, naked body? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/7 "2014-10-14T01:45:21Z")
…oh, that’s _tacky_. That’s really tacky. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/8 "2014-10-14T07:36:21Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > So why no CBE? He appears to have none of the lesser honourss either. It’s possible he turned any offer down. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/9 "2014-10-14T08:15:22Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I suspect it was something to do with him living abroad for most of his career. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’m no expert, but when a British performer lives most of their post-success life outside of the UK, doesn’t that tend to mean they won’t be on the Honours List? I don’t think so, Charlie Chaplin was knighted, and he lived abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/10 "2014-10-14T10:21:44Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t think so, Charlie Chaplin was knighted, and he lived abroad. Living abroad often means such honours are more of a hit and miss affair. It’s easier to forget about someone who has spent most of their time outside Britain. He or she would be less of an insider. This would not necessarily be intentional of the people bestowing such honours. Chaplin was a different matter. Chaplin was an international star no-one could forget. Niven on the other hand was a 2nd rate Hollywood celebrity and a 2nd rate actor. Any knighthood would have been for services other than acting. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/11 "2014-10-14T10:36:35Z")
I recall there was a rumour that he had an affair with Princess Margaret, the Queen’s sister. That would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/12 "2014-10-14T11:11:57Z")
The story goes, at least, that somebody approached Thatcher with the idea of knighthood for Niven in the 80s, and she said, basically, “Sure, as long as he pays his back taxes.” His reaction to that was decidedly negative, so no knighthood. The same thing basically happened with Rex Harrison, but he paid up and got it. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/13 "2014-10-15T21:51:05Z")
Quick googling supports this story does do the rounds, i’m a little puzzled by it however. Why would someone who lived abroad owe a large amount of British back taxes? Surely the point of going in to tax exile in America is that you don’t owe British taxes? Similarly would Margaret Thatcher really be paying that much personal attention to individuals on the honours list, _and_ be familiar with their tax status? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/14 "2014-10-15T22:35:47Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > Quick googling supports this story does do the rounds, i’m a little puzzled by it however. > > Why would someone who lived abroad owe a large amount of British back taxes? Surely the point of going in to tax exile in America is that you don’t owe British taxes? > > Similarly would Margaret Thatcher really be paying that much personal attention to individuals on the honours list, _and_ be familiar with their tax status? I cant answer the last question fully. I doubt the quote from Thatcher is entirely accurate. Though if Niven was a tax exile and still owed money to the State im sure this would have complicated any proposed knighthood. Prime MInisters do get the final approval for such honours, particularly the important ones. MBE’s on the other hand are probably handed out like candy. Proposed Knighthood’s will be vetted fairly intensely(no jokes about Jimmy Saville, please). Niven did work primarily in Hollywood. I think he also made a few films in the UK as well. If he owed taxes it was probably for this period. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/15 "2014-10-15T23:25:12Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Prime MInisters do get the final approval for such honours, particularly the important ones. I’m sure they take a great interest in people they know, fellow politicians and Civil servants etc. I would have thought that actors/musicians/cultural icons would go through on the nod, a PM would assume that the proposal/vetting committees would have done due diligence way below their level of oversight. Also Thatcher was pretty well-know for not especially caring for the Arts and the cultural Zeitgeist. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/16 "2014-10-15T23:27:49Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > Quick googling supports this story does do the rounds, i’m a little puzzled by it however. > > Why would someone who lived abroad owe a large amount of British back taxes? Surely the point of going in to tax exile in America is that you don’t owe British taxes? > > Similarly would Margaret Thatcher really be paying that much personal attention to individuals on the honours list, _and_ be familiar with their tax status? As I read it, he wouldn’t, but she might be petulantly demanding he act like a real British citizen if he wants a real British honor. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/17 "2014-10-17T11:19:38Z")
I could believe that he simply turned down the honour - quite a few others have, and hats off to them I say: [List of people who have declined a British honour - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declining_a_British_honour) He was rather an irreverent character, and perhaps cynical about the UK establishment, having (according to a quick web search I just did, anyway) interrupted his flourishing acting career to serve in the war, only to be stung with a massive tax bill. So maybe rather than them not approving of him, he didn’t approve of them. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/18 "2014-10-17T22:42:02Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I could believe that he simply turned down the honour - quite a few others have, and hats off to them I say: [List of people who have declined a British honour - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declining_a_British_honour) > He was rather an irreverent character, and perhaps cynical about the UK establishment, having (according to a quick web search I just did, anyway) interrupted his flourishing acting career to serve in the war, only to be stung with a massive tax bill. So maybe rather than them not approving of him, he didn’t approve of them. No I like my explanation better. Where Niven and Thatcher spent 50 years locked in a secret war for control of the Holy Grail and the destiny of the UK. With Ninjas!🆒 ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/19 "2014-10-18T04:14:02Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > Similarly would Margaret Thatcher really be paying that much personal attention to individuals on the honours list, _and_ be familiar with their tax status? I’m sure that the PM of England/Britain/WTF would not have that question put to her in public unless she already had an answer prepared. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252/20 "2014-10-18T23:51:41Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I could believe that he simply turned down the honour - quite a few others have, and hats off to them I say: [List of people who have declined a British honour - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declining_a_British_honour) > He was rather an irreverent character, and perhaps cynical about the UK establishment, having (according to a quick web search I just did, anyway) interrupted his flourishing acting career to serve in the war, only to be stung with a massive tax bill. So maybe rather than them not approving of him, he didn’t approve of them. One of the many reasons I like David Bowie is that unlike McCartney, Jagger, Elton John _et al_ he turned down a knighthood, mostly because he felt that it didn’t really fit with being David Bowie. And he was already the Thin White Duke. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-david-niven-never-become-sir-david/701252.md?page=2)