# Why did English borrow so few German words? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2001, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461 "2001-03-10T18:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/41 "2001-03-12T16:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > _ **STOLE** _ from the French??!? Yeah, sure, in the same way the goose whose liver is destined for the kitchen steals the food that is forced down her unwilling throat. > \*\* Goodness…isn’t 935 years just a little long to hold a grudge? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mongrel\_8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@mongrel\_8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mongrel_8)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/42 "2001-03-12T16:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by keeper0 \* > England has never been invaded and occupied by Germany/Prussia, and vice versa. > \*\* Sorry to join this a bit late, but although England never invaded Germany, it has had a German king. It was in the 18th century when George I of the **German** House of Hanover became king. IIRC he couldn’t even speak English when he was king. I would guess that his kingship and others helped to place German words in the English language in the 1700’s. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/43 "2001-03-12T16:10:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by snac \* > **He mentions nosh, schlemiel, and phooey as three words that could have come from any of three directions** Yiddish has a had a strong influence on both German and Dutch. Speaking only for the Dutch side of the story here, I can attest that many words used in the Amsterdam slang are Yiddish or based on Yiddish. Some words are even universal throughout the country, even though Dutch Jews have always predominantly lived in Amsterdam. _Schlemiel_ is used throughout the Netherlands, as is _foei_ (which appears to be the phonetic equivalent of “phoeey”. So, if any of those words entered American English through e.g. the Dutch settlers of NY, it’s still Yiddish to begin with. Some other examples of Dutch words that most Jewish (or indeed even plain American) Dopers will probably recognize right off the bat: “mesjogge”, “gabber” (from ‘chaver’ (sp?)), “gein” (from ‘cheen’), “kosjer”, “sappelen” (from ‘zappeln’), “bajes” (from ‘bajit’, although the Dutch version means ‘prison’ rather than ‘home’), et cetera et cetera. I find this stuff mighty interesting. Can you tell? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/44 "2001-03-12T19:22:47Z")
I’m sure there are some repeats but here are a few more Engish words from German. gemutlichkeit waltz kitsch kaffeeklatsch leitmotiv wunderkind beergarden yodel stein edelweiss lied poltergeist liederkranz Kriss Kringle spritz glockenspiel hausfrau weltanschauung turnverein paraffin zeitgeist gesundheit plunder gestalt hinterland meerschaum weltschmerz rucksack misch-masch angst wanderlust zigzag ostpolitik iceberg kaputt blitz(krieg) ohm wunderbar flak ersatz fahrvergnugen verboten dummkopf spatsy Heldentenor bedeckt ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/45 "2001-03-12T19:42:37Z")
For anyone who still thinks that English hasn’t borrowed many words from modern German (not Germanic), here’s 30+ more that have not been mentioned previously in this thread: alpenhorn bismuth cobalt dirndl dollar feldspar fluegelhorn gedankenexperiment gene genome glockenspiel halt kaffeeklatsch kaput knockwurst lederhosen meerschaum meld (in card games) nickel pinochle (doberman) pinscher pretzel quartz rottweiler schnauzer schwa strudel tram veneer vermouth waltz wolfram zinc Beside these common words, there’s a number of technical words we’ve borrowed from various fields such as geology (karst, flysch), astronomy (gegenshine), and math (eigenvalue). And then there’s several words which have classical roots, but were first coined in German and we then borrowed them (antinomy, graphite, phenotype). ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/46 "2001-03-12T19:43:37Z")
Compound words that’s why. " . . . the word ‘Rheininundationskollektenkasse’ has the distinction of filling an entire iambic pentameter line of verse in Kleist’s _Der zerbrochene Krug_." As anyone who has studied German knows, if the germans need a new word they stick two or three or eight or ten old words together to make a new one. Is it any wonder that Rheininundationskollektenkasse never made it into English? Beyond the basic vocabulary, which others have pointed out is already very close to English, pretty much the entire German language is made up of compounds. Even several of the German words that did make it into English are short compounds. (IE kindergarten, kaffeeklatsch, wanderlust) Just a WAG but my money is on this being the reason that we don’t have more German loan words. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/47 "2001-03-12T20:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > here’s 30+ more that have not been mentioned previously in this thread: Oops. There’s a handful of duplicates between my list and **Degrance** ’s. I didn’t see his list before I submitted because the message board was running slow and I didn’t want to waste time previewing. Anyway, between the three lists plus others in various posts, there’s maybe a hundred German-derived words mentioned in this thread. I hope this quashes the idea that English hasn’t borrow much from German. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/48 "2001-03-12T20:23:26Z")
jj - Ah shucks, I don’t really hold a grudge. But it’s my contention that the superimposition of Norman French on the English language had three effects which I see as negative. (1) We lost the ability to form words out of native elements to describe complex things or situations. This would include most compound words. (2) It was the beginning of a stratification of the language that persists to this day. (3) It messed up the grammar, to the point where even educated speakers and writers are not always sure which form to use. Degrance – True, we don’t take long German compounds into English. But we do invent our own, even though we still put spaces in between the components. Your example, in English, would be: “The Rhine Flood Relief Collection Office”\*. Everything leading up to _Office_ serves to modify that word, just as in German. This feature of English, I think, is highly typical of other Germanic languages. In a Romance language, you’d have to express that concept by sticking in a few prepositions–possibly your example in French would be "Le Bureau \*\*de[/d] somthing **de** …(etc…, I don’t know enough French). - I don’t know the play you mentioned; I’m assuming that’s the basic idea expressed in your example. ---
**Author:** ![snac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@snac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snac)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/49 "2001-03-13T01:06:29Z")
Javaman’s point about compounds in English is quite well taken; what I find so interesting is that English allows both ways of forming long chains. It’s acceptable to pile on the words, but it’s also okay to pile on the prepositions. Consider The National Council OF Teachers OF Mathematics and The National Council FOR the Advancement OF Colored People and The American League OF Professional Baseball Clubs. Heavy with prepositions. Or we could have The Modern Language Association (not the Association FOR the Study OF Modern Language, or whatever) and The National Rifle Association and The North American Soccer League. They coexist, and nobody (much) bats an eye either way. Strikes me that the preposition-loaded ones are on the whole a little older and a little more starchy/formal sounding, but I could be wrong… Interesting if so, because that signals a return to Germanic roots. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/50 "2001-03-13T02:46:59Z")
hijack? I’ve noticed that in musicology (my field) papers/articles there isn’t much agreement or consistency regarding capitalization of borrowed German nouns. Since there’s a lot of borrowing from other languages in music discourse it comes up a lot. Some people get bent out of shape when they see uncapitalized German nouns in a paper written in English, while others could care less. Anyone know of some guidelines to follow? I’m not referring to words that have been in the language long enough to be in an English language dictionary, but newly borrowed ones. Pluralization (is that a word?) is also a problem. It sounds OK to me to order a couple of strudels, but to sing two lieds (Lieder) sounds weird. Thoughts? Another borrowed word: Fach = a voice type (roughly), like lyric soprano or spinto soprano, etc. rivulus ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/51 "2001-03-13T09:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > \*\*I’m sure there are some repeats but here are a few more Engish words from German. > > gemutlichkeit > waltz > kitsch > kaffeeklatsch > leitmotiv > wunderkind > beergarden > yodel > stein > edelweiss > lied > poltergeist > liederkranz > Kriss Kringle > spritz > glockenspiel > hausfrau > weltanschauung > turnverein > paraffin > zeitgeist > gesundheit > plunder > gestalt > hinterland > meerschaum > weltschmerz > rucksack > misch-masch > angst > wanderlust > zigzag > ostpolitik > iceberg > kaputt > blitz(krieg) > ohm > wunderbar > flak > ersatz > fahrvergnugen > verboten > dummkopf > spatsy > Heldentenor > bedeckt > > \*\* English words from German??? Wunderbar. How often have you ever used any of those words in a normal conversation? I have personally never used about 90% of any of those ersatz words. I already get all sorts of flak from my hausfrau for even using slang. Using German would be strictly verborten, indeed she would call me a dummkopf. However, Mein Gott, when she wears her Wonderbra, I feel fahrvergnugen in my liederhosen and wanderlust in my hands. I am bedeckted in sweat, I no longer feel kaput and I yodel out “Let’s get in the bedroom and make some Wonderkind!” ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/52 "2001-03-13T09:16:11Z")
George I is not a good example. He was almost an outcast in his own court and pined for his native Hannover. However, his second generation son was completely English and I doubt any German words went into the English language during George I’s shortish reign. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/53 "2001-03-13T12:06:27Z")
How many words have I personally used in normal conversation? Let’s see: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > waltz Yup. > [@](#): > > kitsch Yup, every time I go to Khan and see the awful ancient egypt kistch they sell there. > [@](#): > > wunderkind Well, sarcastically, in writing. > [@](#): > > beergarden Yumm, went to one in the Sinia. > [@](#): > > yodel Yes, but I refuse to explain. > [@](#): > > stein See beergarden. > [@](#): > > lied > poltergeist Yup, yup. > [@](#): > > spritz Spritzer, use those in the green house. > [@](#): > > paraffin Err, yes but only in context. > [@](#): > > zeitgeist Well… > [@](#): > > gesundheit Constantly. > [@](#): > > plunder Hmm, yeeesssss. > [@](#): > > hinterland Yeah, sure. > [@](#): > > rucksack Suspect this is a bit british. > [@](#): > > misch-masch As mish-mash? > [@](#): > > angst I think so. > [@](#): > > wanderlust Oh yes, surely. > [@](#): > > zigzag Sure! > [@](#): > > ostpolitik Bit dated, but when it was relevant. > [@](#): > > iceberg Well, when talking about them. > [@](#): > > kaputt Sure. > [@](#): > > blitz(krieg) Football. > [@](#): > > flak As in caught some flack over my last spending report. > [@](#): > > verboten > dummkopf Only sarcastically, but then my boss is Swiss (German). There, I think this is a pretty good record. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/54 "2001-03-14T02:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > \*\*For instance, we’ve only borrowed one word from Finnish (sauna) > \*\* And “morse” meaning walrus. But it’s difficult to say what constitutes a borrowing. Names of currency units, for example? Names of geographical features? The name of the country, race or language itself? It’s very hard to find an unequivocal case of “no borrowing”. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/55 "2001-03-14T05:06:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hibernicus \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > > For instance, we’ve only borrowed one word from Finnish (sauna) > > And “morse” meaning walrus. Unfamiliar with this word and it’s not in M-W Collegiate Dict. Also doesn’t look Finnish at all. But none off that means that it’s not a word borrowed from Finnish. Let’s say that there’s only one common word borrowed from Finnish. > [@](#): > > But it’s difficult to say what constitutes a borrowing. Names of currency units, for example? Names of geographical features? The name of the country, race or language itself? It’s very hard to find an unequivocal case of “no borrowing”. I was well aware of things like currency units and such and was deliberately ignoring them but without mentioning that I was. It’s just that I couldn’t be succinct and still give all those qualifiers. (Also, even the word “Finnish” is not Finnish.) Ignoring them when talking about borrowed words seems to be the common practice. For instance, there’s a book (_The World in So Many Words_ by Allan Metcalf) which has a word from all the different languages[sup]1[/sup] that have lent words to English. Metcalf ignores all these kinds of words and doesn’t even say that he is doing so in the introduction. He does have a few words that are derived from geographical or ethnological names (e.g. bikini and hooch) but that’s it. [sup]1[/sup] Well, most of them; he missed a few. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/56 "2001-03-14T17:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by hibernicus \* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by dtilque \* > > > For instance, we’ve only borrowed one word from Finnish (sauna) > > > > And “morse” meaning walrus. > > Unfamiliar with this word and it’s not in M-W Collegiate Dict. Also doesn’t look Finnish at all. \*\* That’s because it’s an English word :). The Finnish for walrus is _mursu_. ---
**Author:** ![BornDodgy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@BornDodgy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornDodgy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461/57 "2001-03-14T18:50:15Z")
German is my native language and if you ask me there are tons of German words in the English language… dodgy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-english-borrow-so-few-german-words/57461.md?page=2)