# Why did God create Lucifer Morningstar? (Satan) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751 "2012-11-21T19:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hkepotat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hkepotat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hkepotat)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/21 "2012-11-21T23:05:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > (cute story deleted). Can you connect your tale to the Satan that is described in the Bible? Wasn’t really trying to create a consistent theology when I wrote that, but that Satan as a trickster and tempter that led a third of the angels after they fell was as close metaphor as I felt a fifteen minute story really needed. I’ll do more research for the novel. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/22 "2012-11-23T13:33:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > To create every possible being and have them all desire to serve God in the end regardless of how they start, and any pain they create will bring about a greater joy in the end. You make God sound selfish, if can can do all things why does he have to be served? I would not beat my chil,d or kill some of his/her offsprings so they could have joy after they are dead. If I can prevent my child from suffering I do what I can to prevent it, I had my children so I could give them love and comfort. I would thinkk that God is better than me! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/23 "2012-11-23T15:11:36Z")
> [@hkepotat](#): > > Wasn’t really trying to create a consistent theology when I wrote that, but that Satan as a trickster and tempter that led a third of the angels after they fell was as close metaphor as I felt a fifteen minute story really needed. Can you provide a Biblical cite for any of these claims? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/24 "2012-11-23T15:13:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > To create every possible being and have them all desire to serve God in the end regardless of how they start, and any pain they create will bring about a greater joy in the end. Do you have any children? If so, is it your desire that they dedicate their lives to serving _you_? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/25 "2012-11-23T15:28:00Z")
The problem with this sort of question is that there’s a lot of variables involved when discussing the concept of satan. There’s the version of satan we see in popular culture, but I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone that actually believes in that version, so asking someone to explain contradictions in that version is not only going to be tricky, but demonstrating contradiction in that single permutation among countless others is an exercise in futility. To that end, I can’t explain the apparent contradiction in that version of satan because, though I am Christian, my view of satan is considerably different. I view satan as more of an anthropomorphization of sin and temptation. It is difficult for man, especially when we were much younger as a species and had less understanding of our place in the universe, to understand why evil exists and why people my choose to do it without some force acting in that way. So to ask me why God created satan is sort of like asking why cold exists when, when really cold is just an absence of heat, as such, evil and sin exist as a consequence of will and choice. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/26 "2012-11-25T13:48:03Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The problem with this sort of question is that there’s a lot of variables involved when discussing the concept of satan. There’s the version of satan we see in popular culture, but I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone that actually believes in that version, so asking someone to explain contradictions in that version is not only going to be tricky, but demonstrating contradiction in that single permutation among countless others is an exercise in futility. > > To that end, I can’t explain the apparent contradiction in that version of satan because, though I am Christian, my view of satan is considerably different. I view satan as more of an anthropomorphization of sin and temptation. It is difficult for man, especially when we were much younger as a species and had less understanding of our place in the universe, to understand why evil exists and why people my choose to do it without some force acting in that way. So to ask me why God created satan is sort of like asking why cold exists when, when really cold is just an absence of heat, as such, evil and sin exist as a consequence of will and choice. To me if God created Satan then it would mean he wants evil to exist,and if so then why would he punish humans for doing evil and let satan win a person’s soul? It says to me that either Satan doesn’t exist, and it is just another writing, teaching or belief of another human! ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/27 "2012-11-25T13:55:16Z")
So much for God being honest with his creation and setting a good example from the outset. He gives Adam and Eve a Garden Of Eden that he tells them is all theirs, except for one particular tree, and then forgets to add he’s threw that Shaitan character into the mix. The Trickster was playing head games with them from the outset, knowing they were as green as freshly mown grass. Talk about giving Himself a challenge. God: “Bwahahahahahaaaaa… let’s see how these rubes handle my new creation, Lucifer Morningstar.” ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/28 "2012-11-26T15:21:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which one are we discussing here-Lucifer or Satan? That’s what I was going to ask also. The name “Lucifer” appears only once in the Bible, and refers to a king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar II), not to Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/29 "2012-11-26T15:28:07Z")
The character “Lucifer Morningstar” is from DC Comics. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/30 "2012-11-26T15:41:02Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > The end of the equation is that there is no god… and 5000 years from now the entire concept will be no more thought a reality than Zeus throwing lightning bolts from the clouds of Mount Olympus. Those silly twenty-first century people. Most of them weren’t yet even operating thetans, can you imagine? Thank Ron that such suppressive persons were finally cleared away a few thousand years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/31 "2012-11-26T15:42:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The character “Lucifer Morningstar” is from DC Comics. Well, there you go then - God created Lucifer Morningstar because he fancied trying his hand at the comics medium. He simply chose to act through Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey so as not to set the religious into a froth and atheists all a twitter. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/32 "2012-11-26T15:43:21Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > That’s what I was going to ask also. The name “Lucifer” appears only once in the Bible, and refers to a king of Babylon (possibly Nebuchadnezzar II), not to Satan. And the serpent in the Garden of Eden is not explicitly identified as Satan or as anything/anyone other than a serpent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/33 "2012-11-26T15:49:22Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It says to me that either Satan doesn’t exist, and it is just another writing, teaching or belief of another human! What’s the word “either” doing in there? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/34 "2012-11-26T16:26:58Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The problem with this sort of question is that there’s a lot of variables involved when discussing the concept of satan. There’s the version of satan we see in popular culture, but I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone that actually believes in that version, so asking someone to explain contradictions in that version is not only going to be tricky, but demonstrating contradiction in that single permutation among countless others is an exercise in futility. > > To that end, I can’t explain the apparent contradiction in that version of satan because, though I am Christian, my view of satan is considerably different. I view satan as more of an anthropomorphization of sin and temptation. It is difficult for man, especially when we were much younger as a species and had less understanding of our place in the universe, to understand why evil exists and why people my choose to do it without some force acting in that way. So to ask me why God created satan is sort of like asking why cold exists when, when really cold is just an absence of heat, as such, evil and sin exist as a consequence of will and choice. I guarantee the majority of people that are religious believe in pop-culture Satan. You’re assuming MOST religious people are well educated. Some certainly are. Maybe as many as 49%. (Doubt it.) But MOST? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/35 "2012-11-26T16:31:23Z")
I’m sorry, you’re right. I did some more research. Satan is never directly, in the bible, identified as Lucifer Morningstar. The DC comics thing? Wrong, well, sort of. He might be a comic character, but he also is… “Lucifer Morningstar was the name of God’s first General according to Canaanite “Myth” (Religion).” Which is where I got my story from. Sorry. I mixed up my knowledge from reading the Bible with historical mythology research. So I guess this whole post would be pointless, if not for the fact that Canaanite “myth” is so hugely related to Christianity that it isn’t even funny. I want everybody to realize I know that Christianity is crap. Just a question addressing part of my proof. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/36 "2012-11-26T16:35:47Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > I’m sorry, you’re right. I did some more research. > > Satan is never directly, in the bible, identified as Lucifer Morningstar. > > The DC comics thing? > Wrong, well, sort of. He might be a comic character, but he also is… > “Lucifer Morningstar was the name of God’s first General according to Canaanite “Myth” (Religion).” > > Which is where I got my story from. Sorry. I mixed up my knowledge from reading the Bible with historical mythology research. So I guess this whole post would be pointless, if not for the fact that Canaanite “myth” is so hugely related to Christianity that it isn’t even funny. > > I want everybody to realize I know that Christianity is crap. Just a question addressing part of my proof. Do you have a cite for “Lucifer Morningstar was the name of God’s first General according to Canaanite “Myth” (Religion).”? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/37 "2012-11-26T17:01:29Z")
> **[Isaiah 14:12 - Downfall of the King of Babylon](https://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm)** > > How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations. There’s that for a link to Satan/Morningstar. I’ll get back on the Canaanite thing in about an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/38 "2012-11-26T17:06:48Z")
hkepotat, please consider putting blank lines between your paragraphs. Some of us are middle-aged. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/39 "2012-11-26T17:43:57Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > [Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.](http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm) > > There’s that for a link to Satan/Morningstar. > > I’ll get back on the Canaanite thing in about an hour. Even in that link there is no Lucifer Morningstar-it is either “Liucifer” _or_ “Morningstar”, and it is more linked to a king of the Old Testament than to Satan, as a thorough read of your link shows. “Lucifer Morningstar” is still just a DC Comics character. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/40 "2012-11-26T17:59:02Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > The end of the equation is that there is no god… and 5000 years from now the entire concept will be no more thought a reality than Zeus throwing lightning bolts from the clouds of Mount Olympus. Meh…we deal with fictional characters and the logical ramifications of their supposed character/story all the time on the SDMB–IIRC there was once a lengthy thread on this board trying to decide whether or not Superman could tear his own head off. If we can make coherent arguments about that, we can deal with this rather basic concept of Christian mythology. > [@Drfidelius](#): > > Melon’s answer is correct. Shaitan is the Adversary, as in the lawyer arguing against you in court. See the Book of Job for details. This is certainly the starting point for Satan, but the concept is developed in a way that it’s possible to define a somewhat different “Christian Satan” distinct from the OT version. > [@](#): > > Satan is never directly, in the bible, identified as Lucifer Morningstar. This is correct; Christians identify Satan with Lucifer because of Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”. “Lucifer” in Latin means “light bearer”, and was the common appelation for the morning star (Venus), which rises just ahead of the sun. As **CurtC** correctly notes, this identification is wrong; it requires the verse to be read out of context. If the entire chapter is read, it’s clear Isaiah is referring to a historical ruler who was dead by the time of the prophet. Christians also allegorize the writings of another prophet to explain Satan, Ezekiel 28:12-15: > [@](#): > > You were the seal of perfection, > full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. > You were in Eden, > the garden of God; > every precious stone adorned you: > carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, > topaz, onyx and jasper, > lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.\*\* > Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold; > on the day you were created they were prepared. > You were anointed as a guardian cherub, > for so I ordained you. > You were on the holy mount of God; > you walked among the fiery stones. > You were blameless in your ways > from the day you were created > till wickedness was found in you. > Through your widespread trade > you were filled with violence, > and you sinned. > So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, > and I expelled you, guardian cherub, > from among the fiery stones. Again, the surrounding text makes it clear Ezekiel is referring to a historical ruler, the king of the city of Tyre. Nevertheless, many Christian thinkers have used these texts to outline the origins of their particular Satan: He was once the chief of God’s angels (“seal of perfection…anointed as a guardian cherub”), then made the choice to rebel against God (this is the theological definition of “sin”), and was driven “in disgrace from the mount of God”. The Fourth Lateran Council (1213-5) confirmed the above beliefs about the existence of the devil with the additional caveat that he and his angel-henchmen were made evil _per se_ (“by themselves”, i.e. without God making them evil). This was quite a problem for medieval theologians, who in the main considered “sin” a result of ignorance about the true wonder and majesty of God–if you just knew how great he was you’d never sin again! But the angels seemed to have a much better knowledge of God, so how could ignorance be the cause of their sin? None of them had a really good answer–and the Catholic Church at least has no accepted doctrine on what exactly happened–but the consensus is that Satan’s sin was one of pride most probably caused by knowledge that God himself (in the form of Christ) would essentially elevate the lesser species of man to a status higher than the angels. Knowledge of this event was so extraordinary (there really is no earthly equivalent to this change in the divine hierarchy) that it could even tempt the angels to rebel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=3)