# Why did God create Lucifer Morningstar? (Satan) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751 "2012-11-21T19:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/101 "2012-11-30T12:42:00Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > …then John Smith came along and said God change his mind YET AGAIN, so Book of Mormon. And then _Joseph_ Smith decided that God changed his mind and had to edit the Book of Mormon just five years later. The only difference between Joseph Smith and earlier authors of scriptures is that the origins of Mormonism is recent enough that the evolution of theology can be clearly documented whereas the evolution of earlier authors isn’t quite as clear. And speaking of Mormonism, their answer for why God created Lucifer is that he was one of our brothers in the “preexistance” and lead a revolution against God with a full, one third of our fellow spirit brothers and sisters going along. Jesus and his allies (most of us) beat them up and kicked them out, except that according to one teaching (now hushed up, but never officially revoked) Blacks were fence sitters in this great war. When Lucifer and his hosts were kicked out, they came down to the earth and wonder around tempting people. If you think about it, the shear number of devils running around is pretty amazing. If you take one third of all the people who have ever lived or will live on the earth, and divide it up by the populations of the past, then there would be hundreds (thousands?) of devils per person. That’s a lot of tempting. No wonder Sodom and Gomorrah were so bad. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/102 "2012-11-30T13:26:23Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > I should’ve been more thoughtful and included that I’m looking at Christian belief, because I couldn’t care less about what the Jews have to say about it. They leave out a half of the bible without any reasoning from what I’ve been informed. So that argument \*\*The Other Waldo Pepper \*\* had has no meaning to my question. Belief is one thing…Fact another! ---
**Author:** ![missyzilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@missyzilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missyzilly)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/103 "2012-12-04T13:28:21Z")
Satan was not created evil. He made a choice . ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/104 "2012-12-04T15:21:34Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > Satan was not created evil. He made a choice . What Bible verse says this? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/105 "2012-12-04T16:50:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What Bible verse says this? One of these, possibly. [http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm](http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/106 "2012-12-04T16:56:41Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > One of these, possibly. > [http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm](http://mcdonaldroad.org/bible/study/lucifer.htm) It starts with a muddled “Lucifer” connection, and the other verses are even more loosely connected to the stated position of the web page. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/107 "2012-12-05T01:31:27Z")
It probably had something to do with [this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9alqNlP-ww) God needs something to act against or the whole thing falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/108 "2012-12-05T02:41:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What Bible verse says this? i’m not in the mood to play bible study, but here’s where he is explained as being perfect before he defied God… Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version) 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. and [here](http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-defeat.html)is a whatever link talking about his subsequent defiance and belief he could defeat God. there’s debate as to whether or not angels could even have free will to decide to go against God, but that’s a whole other ball of wax. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/109 "2012-12-05T02:44:56Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i’m not in the mood to play bible study, but here’s where he is explained as being perfect before he defied God… > > Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version) > 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. > > and [here](http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-defeat.html)is a whatever link talking about his subsequent defiance and belief he could defeat God. > > there’s debate as to whether or not angels could even have free will to decide to go against God, but that’s a whole other ball of wax. Do those verses name Satan, or Lucifer? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/110 "2012-12-05T02:53:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do those verses name Satan, or Lucifer? [No, and they are apparently supposed to be a prophecy delivered to the King of Tyre about the destruction of the city.](https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1150-a-study-of-ezekiel-28) But why should a little thing like that get in the way? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/111 "2012-12-05T03:22:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do those verses name Satan, or Lucifer? well, you’re getting into a huge ball of tangled canon and interpretation trying to differentiate between the two. while there is a case to be made against lucifer being satan, it’s common christian canon they are the same. from wikipedia’s entry on Lucifer: > [@](#): > > Before the rise of Christianity, the pseudepigrapha of Enochic Judaism, which enjoyed much popularity during the Second Temple period,[13] gave Satan an expanded role. They interpreted Isaiah 14:12-15 as applicable to Satan, and presented him as a fallen angel cast out of Heaven.[14] Christian tradition, influenced by this presentation,[14] came to use the Latin word for “morning star”, lucifer, as a proper name (“Lucifer”) for Satan as he was before his fall. > [@](#): > > Translation of הֵילֵל as “Lucifer”, as in the King James Version, has been abandoned in modern English translations of Isaiah 14:12. Present-day translations have “morning star” (New International Version, New Century Version, New American Standard Bible, Good News Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, Contemporary English Version, Common English Bible, Complete Jewish Bible), “daystar” (New Jerusalem Bible, English Standard Version, The Message), “shining one” (New Life Version) or “shining star” (New Living Translation). > > This development has been decried not only by adherents of the King James Only movement, but also by others, who hold that the King James Version is correct and that Isaiah 14:12 refers to \*\*Satan \*\*under the name of “Lucifer”,[15][16] or who hold that the reference to \*\*Satan \*\*is preeminent.[17] it gets into a pretty intense theological discussion, going back to hebrew and greek terms, etc. i cannot find “lucifer” under the biblegateway’s search terms in NIV. i can also point you to controversy that morning star was Jesus, not Lucifer or satan. i can get my concordance out and look for the hebrew words…give me a bit. > [@Marley23](#): > > [No, and they are apparently supposed to be a prophecy delivered to the King of Tyre about the destruction of the city.](https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1150-a-study-of-ezekiel-28) But why should a little thing like that get in the way? i don’t understand the point, here. are you attacking the veracity of the bible’s prophecies? does the bible need to be proven or disproven to suss out what it says about lucifer or satan? i thought the discussion was about what it says, not about what it says being necessarily true. i think nearly everyone here doesn’t believe the bible as truth. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/112 "2012-12-05T03:47:44Z")
h’oook. according to my Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the only mention of “lucifer” is Isaiah 14:12, “art thou fallen from heaven…” all other reverences fall under “satan.” according to my dake’s annotated reference bible, luke 10:18 begins discussion over how satan had dominion over the earth after he was cast out of heaven. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “This refers to the casting out of Satan when he invaded heaven from the earth long before Adam. Satan has since then regained dominion of the earth by Adam’s fall, and he will again be cast out in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, or 3 1/2 years before the second Advent.” (note: dake’s commentary is a bible is a KJV that contains an intense level of subtext breaking down what all the scriptures mean, cross-referencing other portions that pertain to the verse at hand and break down translations. it basically gives you a fairly thorough interpretation of things, then explains why it was interpreted that way. FWIW). then he cites the passages in Ezekiel i posted before and some in Isaiah, etc. so that’s what is generally accepted. you can find cases arguing that’s not a correct interpretation, but short of being a bible scholar it’s about the best i can do. [this](http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/Biblequestions/WhereDidWeGet.pdf)talks about the greek word for “lucifer.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/113 "2012-12-05T06:16:39Z")
Nope. Right up there with sky pixies and humans fear of the Great Beyond. Irrationality at its worse. But for the most part, that is what we are. Mankind ‘giving’ solutions where we haven’t any. Me? Only seems logical to go back to the state we where in prior to being born. In short, not being. Anyone recall being afraid _then_? ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/114 "2012-12-05T06:23:11Z")
Ack, misread. Disregard. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/115 "2012-12-05T12:45:38Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i’m not in the mood to play bible study, but here’s where he is explained as being perfect before he defied God… > > Ezekiel 28:15 (King James Version) > 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. > > and [here](http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-defeat.html)is a whatever link talking about his subsequent defiance and belief he could defeat God. > > there’s debate as to whether or not angels could even have free will to decide to go against God, but that’s a whole other ball of wax. This would point to the matter that Heaven and being with God is not all bliss,if a being is totally happy why rebel? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/116 "2012-12-05T13:08:33Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > It NEVER says that! It says only that they defied him. It most certainly says that : [QUOTE=the Bible] But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” 11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” [/QUOTE] God doesn’t know yet that Adam and Eve have eaten of the fruit. He deduces it from Adam’s words. In fact, he doesn’t even know where they Adam and Eve are until Adam speaks. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/117 "2012-12-05T20:23:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > This would point to the matter that Heaven and being with God is not all bliss,if a being is totally happy why rebel? plot hole, i guess. there’s quite a few if you pay even a modicum of attention. i think christians just gloss over it. personally i couldn’t get past the part where God created man and decided man was wicked, so he decides to drown mankind, but then here we still are…“and God saw the hearts of men and saw that they were evil, but swore to never flood the earth again.” so why the theatrics, since literally no resolution was achieved? it also indicates he changed his mind, then changed it _again_, the just kind of decided to accept we are evil. the best explanation i have gotten from theologians about it is that God simply wanted to kill \*those \*men, like a single hit. but he wanted to kill them for being wicked, then at the end declares we are ALL wicked, and nothing changed. i guess i’m missing the point… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/118 "2012-12-05T20:29:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It most certainly says that : > > God doesn’t know yet that Adam and Eve have eaten of the fruit. He deduces it from Adam’s words. In fact, he doesn’t even know where they Adam and Eve are until Adam speaks. A valid interpretation of the text, but it does not actually say that. There is no reason that this would be in conflict with God’s future-knowing powers. It just means that God’s questions were rhetorical. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/119 "2012-12-05T20:31:15Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i don’t understand the point, here. are you attacking the veracity of the bible’s prophecies? does the bible need to be proven or disproven to suss out what it says about lucifer or satan? I’m saying I don’t think the passage has anything to do with Lucifer/Satan/Whatever. That part of Ezekiel seems to be a series of prophecies about how God is going to destroy a bunch of cities. Chapter 28 is about Tyre and the whole thing is addressed to the king, not Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/120 "2012-12-05T20:38:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m saying I don’t think the passage has anything to do with Lucifer/Satan/Whatever. That part of Ezekiel seems to be a series of prophecies about how God is going to destroy a bunch of cities. Chapter 28 is about Tyre and the whole thing is addressed to the king, not Satan. there is some debate about that…depending on interpretation (it’s as murky as the rest of the bible, either way. a common [analysis](http://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html)asserts it is talking about both, as “being in Eden” would not be possible for a human king as well as other supernatural references, so it is considered a “dual prophecy”). regardless, in the Gospels there are several accounts of the fall of Satan, which only used the word “satan” in the NIV and KJV bibles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=7)