# Why did God create Lucifer Morningstar? (Satan) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751 "2012-11-21T19:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/141 "2012-12-09T13:37:08Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > What people do not understand is he loves he gets angry he has hope he has been known to cry. He is not a big bully in the sky. HE said ,my plans are to prosper you not harm you. Also he said I knit you together in the womb. I knew you before you were born. You are my child and Iam your father. He never said that life will be easy. A good human father would not give anything to his child that he even thought would be harful, nor hold anything back that he knew would help his child, so in that sense we expect more of a human father than a father who is said to know all things ahead of time, and what human father wouldn’t step in if he saw his child was harming itself? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/142 "2012-12-09T13:38:30Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > What is the evidence for a global flood? > How did all those animals get to the Ark from other continents? > How was climate control managed on the Ark for animals from different places like the Arctic, the deserts, and the tropics? > How could they carry all the food and fresh water needed for all the animals? > How did they clean up all the waste? > How did all the plants survive being covered in water for more than a month? > If the Flood waters were fresh water, how did the saltwater creatures survive? Or if it was salt water, how did the freshwater critters manage? > When the Ark came to rest on Ararat, how did all the animals get back to where they were supposed to be ? Actually it was coverd with water for nearly a year. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/143 "2012-12-09T13:39:48Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > He does not make mistakes we do. He gave us free will . But when he sees the evil it hurt him . He made a promise after the flood to never destroy human life again. That is why we are still alive . Not because he does not care but because of his promise. He said after the flood I set my bow in the sky to remember the promise to never destroy mankind in this manner again. He gives US ARE OWN FREE WILL. We make the mistakes . According to the OT God regretted creating man so he did make mistakes! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/144 "2012-12-09T13:41:25Z")
> [@God and judgment](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-judgment/643703/2): > > The blue whale was on the 2nd floor of the ark. As for the fish well I think they stayed in the water outside of the ark . cause they did not like the blue whales…Yep 😕 Some fish will not survive in fresh water some will not survive in salt water so either way a lot would not have survived. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/145 "2012-12-09T19:36:38Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If we had free will there would be no punishment for our actions. The fact that God is said to have punished Adam and Eve for disobeying, shows they didn’t have free will,but had to do as God wanted.So the free will is just to do as God commands? I’m not entirely certain you are using free will in the same way as most people mean it. Free will means you have the ability to disobey; it does not mean you can avoid the repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/146 "2012-12-09T20:05:11Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > IF I recall rightly there is a passage that God is quoted as saying he regretted creating humans. If indeed he regretted that, then he didn’t know the outcome a head of time. It also would point out that God could, and did make mistakes. I’m pretty sure he did not know the outcome ahead of time; that is the essence of free will. If he knows everything ahead of time, then everything is determined; in which case, there’s no point in actually doing any creating. Or if He did create than He could just jump over the whole middle part and cut to the end. As for making mistakes: I suppose it gets all down to how you define it. I think you’ll find that defining the word “mistake” is pretty tricky. Do you feel a criminal makes a mistake when he deliberately decides to rob a bank? Let’s say he never gets caught. Is it still a mistake? I suppose misspelling a word is clearly a mistake, unless I intended to misspell it. Even if I intended to misspell it, perhaps its still a mistake, because noone understood the comical effect I was attempting. To be able to judge if a being makes a mistake, you would have to clearly understand the full intent. I am confident that we cannot understand the full intent of a creating God. I’m afraid trying to use human concepts to fully understand something that is by definition not human is going to lead to many types of translation problems. I like to apply Roger Penrose’s idea to the problem: that our metaphysics is still missing some major component. Or perhaps the scale is simply too big and small for us to be able to grasp everything at once, even in a rough way. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/147 "2012-12-09T20:05:23Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > oh how i did ask the same questions. “how did the polar bears get there? and penguins?! what about the the animals found only in Australia or Madagascar? what about animals that we are just now realizing even existed? wouldn’t Noah have had to catalog all the creatures? why isn’t there a list anyplace?” > > after asking as many knowledgeable Christians as i could, here were the answers to your questions: > > miracle; miracle; miracle; god miracled it; miracle miracle miracle (ad infinitum). > > so naturally the next question is: > > if God just “miracled” all the animals there across the whole planet, and miracled arctic animals to survive in the middle east, and miracled the carnivores not to eat the other animals, and miracled all the birds and fish and everything else to fit there, and koalas to end up back in \*only \*australia after, and miracled the flood to even happen so catastrophically huge, and miracled there to even been enough water existing on the planet at the same time to overrun all the land-mass with water, then miracled that water off the planet back to a normal water-cycle amount-- _why did he even bother making Noah build the boat_? why the theatrics? why the hullabaloo? God did every last stinkin’ bit of the work (according to logic–i mean, he said “gather two of every species,” but literally no one i have ever talked to believes Noah actually spanned the entire globe on foot and collected every single animal and brought them back to the middle east). So why not just shout down “HERE IS THIS GIANT BOAT. it is divine and will protect you. get thee upon it; it is full of every animal.” > > or better yet–just say “i wave my arm and everyone but you is dead. boom. there is a lesson, here–” > > i just fail to see the point of manually building the dumb boat. actually i fail to see the point of the story at all. we are required suspension of disbelief, yet some mundane element has to remain. “we need a boat. we need…some manual action. something…” > > oh–and the dimensions of the boat are given, and there’s literally not enough physical space for all the animals to fit on it, so there’s another miracle–miracling all the animals into small squishy marshmallows or something. > > also, there’s a “biologist” who claims to have a PHD and does lectures on how man and dinosaur coexisted in the time of the bible, and how Noah put all the dinosaurs on the boat as well, but the climate change after the flood somehow was not conducive to dinosaur life, so they all died after the flood–which is yet another masterfully pointless endeavor proposed. > > it gets even worse with Young Earthers. they believe the strata lines in the Grand Canyon–or other elements we can use to deduce the age of the planet–such as silt deposits at river-mouths–were all intentionally placed there by God upon creation to \*appear \*old. > > wrap your mind \*around \*that. > > they are advocating a _purposely deceitful God_. and don’t get me started on the ones who think God planted dinosaur bones here just to mess around with the non-believers–that dinosaurs never actually existed–only their bones did. > > :shaking head: I already had it figured out; I was just trying to get missy to respond. But that’s okay. You bring up some excellent points. And here is another: what did all the animals and plants do to deserve dying in a flood–other than the ones that got miracled all the way to the Ark? ---
**Author:** ![missyzilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@missyzilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missyzilly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/148 "2012-12-10T08:10:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > A good human father would not give anything to his child that he even thought would be harful, nor hold anything back that he knew would help his child, so in that sense we expect more of a human father than a father who is said to know all things ahead of time, and what human father wouldn’t step in if he saw his child was harming itself? I understand why you feel he does not step in. But he is going to step in at the end. He said . I heal the broken in heart I bindeth up their wounds. He will heal yours also . ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/149 "2012-12-10T12:32:31Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > I’m pretty sure he did not know the outcome ahead of time; that is the essence of free will. If he knows everything ahead of time, then everything is determined; in which case, there’s no point in actually doing any creating. Or if He did create than He could just jump over the whole middle part and cut to the end. > > As for making mistakes: I suppose it gets all down to how you define it. I think you’ll find that defining the word “mistake” is pretty tricky. Do you feel a criminal makes a mistake when he deliberately decides to rob a bank? Let’s say he never gets caught. Is it still a mistake? > > I suppose misspelling a word is clearly a mistake, unless I intended to misspell it. Even if I intended to misspell it, perhaps its still a mistake, because noone understood the comical effect I was attempting. > > To be able to judge if a being makes a mistake, you would have to clearly understand the full intent. I am confident that we cannot understand the full intent of a creating God. > > I’m afraid trying to use human concepts to fully understand something that is by definition not human is going to lead to many types of translation problems. I like to apply Roger Penrose’s idea to the problem: that our metaphysics is still missing some major component. Or perhaps the scale is simply too big and small for us to be able to grasp everything at once, even in a rough way. My point exactly. If God is all knowing then he would not be like the Biblical God as portrayed. If God regretted creating man then he didn’t know ahead of time what man would do so he would not be all knowing. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/150 "2012-12-10T12:39:12Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > I understand why you feel he does not step in. But he is going to step in at the end. He said . I heal the broken in heart I bindeth up their wounds. He will heal yours also . In other words this all loving being would be like a father who beats his child for something he/she doesn’t understand, then locks him /her up for many years so the child can’t make a mistake, instead of giving the child the knowledge and means to see the future so when he is an adult he will know the difference? Doesn’t sound very loving or kind to me. He also lets a monster he created destroy the child that he is supposed to love, sends the child to eternal punishment because of it and even though he knew before the child was created it would burn for all eternity? Even punishes the childs prodigy because of the parent’s disobying him? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/151 "2012-12-10T12:40:12Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > I understand why you feel he does not step in. But he is going to step in at the end. He said . I heal the broken in heart I bindeth up their wounds. He will heal yours also . Remember God didn’t say anythig, some human said it was said by God, that is a proven fact! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/152 "2012-12-10T12:42:25Z")
> [@God and judgment](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-judgment/643703/10): > > Yes you do have free will so did Adam and Eve. They did get punished but they had freedom of choice . If they did not they would not have choice to eat the fruit. They were told not to eat it and told that the would die. Then they were tempted and they had the free will to eat it . Even with the knowledge of punishment we still have free will. When they ate the fruit did God Kill them no. He asked them who told you that you were naked they said the snake and you no the rest . But what God did next was made them garments to cover them. He still loved them he told them there punishment and they lived happily ever after until they died. The punishment does not take away free will. I wonder if they were happy ever after, even when their son Cain killed their son Abel, that must have been a real kick…huh? ---
**Author:** ![missyzilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@missyzilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missyzilly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/153 "2012-12-10T13:11:19Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > In other words this all loving being would be like a father who beats his child for something he/she doesn’t understand, then locks him /her up for many years so the child can’t make a mistake, instead of giving the child the knowledge and means to see the future so when he is an adult he will know the difference? Doesn’t sound very loving or kind to me. He also lets a monster he created destroy the child that he is supposed to love, sends the child to eternal punishment because of it and even though he knew before the child was created it would burn for all eternity? Even punishes the childs prodigy because of the parent’s disobying him? That is not what he will do to a child of his at all . He gave you and me knowledge if he did not how would we be talking about him. And he will not punish a child who does not no about him. He will only punish you or anyone if you do not ask for forgivness. And the monster he created can only tempt we have a choice. GOD knows we are going to sin . He sent Jesus just for that reason. You do not have to do anything but ask him to forgive you. Then he said I will never leave you nor forsake you . He is not sitting up there waiting for you to fail so he can harm you. He just wants you to ask him to forgive you Then the rest is up to you and him, ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/154 "2012-12-11T00:54:09Z")
> [@God and judgment](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-judgment/643703/31): > > What do you have to say to those that have tried to speak to God over and over and over again, and yet have received no answer? A serious answer would be appreciated. I wonder if mz would be willing to read this post and the many comments on it: > **[The Powerlessness of Prayer](https://new.exchristian.net/2012/09/the-powerlessness-of-prayer.html)** > > I don't believe in the power of prayer. The reason why...because of God's lack of answer to prayer. In all honesty, God really does not answer prayer in the way it's promised in the Bible. The Bible claims that God cares for you and me and wants to... ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/155 "2012-12-11T12:40:54Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > That is not what he will do to a child of his at all . He gave you and me knowledge if he did not how would we be talking about him. And he will not punish a child who does not no about him. He will only punish you or anyone if you do not ask for forgivness. And the monster he created can only tempt we have a choice. GOD knows we are going to sin . He sent Jesus just for that reason. You do not have to do anything but ask him to forgive you. Then he said I will never leave you nor forsake you . He is not sitting up there waiting for you to fail so he can harm you. He just wants you to ask him to forgive you Then the rest is up to you and him, If he is all knowing then he knew ahead of time before a person was created how the child would act, so therefore it would be his will to have a child do evil. Being a parent myself, I would not concieve a child I knew a head of time that would kill another of my children. Adam and Eve did not choose to be tempted by a so called superior being, so they were totally innocent and God would have known ahead of time they would disobey, just as he should have known Satan would be evil. Jesus told the woman who needed his help for her child, that he just came for the lost sheep of Israel, so if the writing is true, then Jesus didn’t come to save the world(that would be a direct quote). The church or writers decided he came for that purpose. It is a matter of belief. Each person believes what they feel helps them. Belief changes when they see it does not. Belief is either taught, written, or thought, by other people and we pick up on that! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/156 "2012-12-11T12:43:36Z")
> [@God and judgment](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-and-judgment/643703/20): > > What is wrong with you? I have only showed you my view of God. I have not judged or insulted you. Now because you can not find fault with someone telling you God loves you . Now you go to the level of a child by pointing out anything that will make you feel better about the fact you are scared of God. If you make fun of me and ignore what I said then you feel justifed. HE IS STILL REAL . You have not read the bible have you? You only keep what you read in links and posts on hand to make it by in a battle to prove God Is not real. Your only fooling yourself. It is a proven Fact that the Bible is the work of other humans and also that other humans decided it was inspired and was the Word of God. so inreality one is believing in other humans not God. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/157 "2012-12-11T15:06:02Z")
[I’ve moved a bunch of **missyzilly** ’s posts (and posts made in response to hers) to a separate thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675196) It’s a separate topic and at least a few posters were still interested in the original Lucifer subject. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/158 "2012-12-11T15:10:21Z")
Is there a specific point in the Bible where Satan went from being “God’s Assigned Protagonist” to “God’s Enemy”? ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/159 "2012-12-11T16:49:03Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > My point exactly. If God is all knowing then he would not be like the Biblical God as portrayed. If God regretted creating man then he didn’t know ahead of time what man would do so he would not be all knowing. If we agree that all-knowing means that he knows what actions we will choose to take in the future, then yes, we agree here. He cannot know, because He gave us free will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751/160 "2012-12-11T17:00:00Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > If we agree that all-knowing means that he knows what actions we will choose to take in the future, then yes, we agree here. He cannot know, because He gave us free will. Free will does not mean random choices. He would know each and everything that could possibly influence us, our mindset at the time of each and every decision, and the contents of our memory. He should have no problem guessing what we will do from birth until death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-god-create-lucifer-morningstar-satan/641751.md?page=9)