# Why did grapes become the defacto wine making fruit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 1, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713 "2020-01-01T13:11:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/21 "2020-01-02T16:53:53Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Grapes have the highest sugar content of any fruit they were primarily used for wine because it got you fucked up. Apples have most of the same properties that grapes due in terms of tannins and nutrients they are just lacking sugar content. That means you’ve got to pick more to get the same level of drunk. > > After apples the next level of fruit is so un sugary that they are rarely fermented on their own. For your uncles cherry wine I’m betting he sugared the hell out of it. Apple juice has about 50% more sugar than cherry. So you’re 5% abv cider would be about 3.5% abv cherry wine. This must be a big part of it. Fermentation to produce alcohol is not just for getting drunk, it’s a way to preserve crops. The alcohol produced can be more valuable than the original crop, and grows increasingly so as the time after harvest passes. The beer produced by lower sugar crops doesn’t end up with the sweet taste of wine, may or not be well liked as it is, but can be distilled to produce high alcohol content liquor. I thought grapes were a big part of diet in the Mediteranean region long ago, so there must have plenty to use for making wine long before the French became known as wine makers. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/22 "2020-01-02T17:14:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This must be a big part of it. Fermentation to produce alcohol is not just for getting drunk, it’s a way to preserve crops. The alcohol produced can be more valuable than the original crop, and grows increasingly so as the time after harvest passes. The beer produced by lower sugar crops doesn’t end up with the sweet taste of wine, may or not be well liked as it is, but can be distilled to produce high alcohol content liquor. > > I thought grapes were a big part of diet in the Mediteranean region long ago, so there must have plenty to use for making wine long before the French became known as wine makers. The low alcohol content makes distilled spirits worse since you are mainly pulling out the ethanol out of the beer. While it doesn’t matter too much to people whether they drink 5% or 8% beer they still want their 12 ounces. That difference between 5% and 8% in whiskey means you’ll only produce 255 bottles of whiskey per 500 gallons of 5% beer vs 408 bottles at 8% (not account for angles share). Some of this is mitigated by the crop densities per acre where potatoes end up giving the best yields per acre followed by corn, wheat (rye and barely are about the same), and then grapes. Apples have about half the spirit yield per acre as corn. Once we drop below apples the next level is cherries and plums which get you about a barrel (300 bottles) per acre which isn’t really economical. The left over sweet taste is partially due to incomplete fermentation which is desired in wine and beer but not in spirits. The more sugar you leave behind the less is turned to ethanol which is a real problem when you realize that sweet wines leave more sugar behind than you start with in a cherry wine and sweet ciders end up with less alcohol then light beers. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/23 "2020-01-03T15:14:53Z")
Fermenting alcohol requires water, carbohydrates (sugar and, to some extent, starch), and yeast. With wine, grapes come with yeast as a package deal. (Klockera and Candida are wild yeasts) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/24 "2020-01-03T17:26:27Z")
The sugar content of grapes (plus their lack of a strong distinctive flavor) means that it is used quite often in place of sugar when a drink wants to advertise “Made from all natural fruit juices - no sugar added!” Not sure how early in the Bible wine is mentioned, but people were in the habit of getting falling down drunk in the time of Noah, so it has a decent pedigree. Grapes do grow in various places in Canada, they just aren’t the sort you’d want to make wine with except in the extreme south of some provinces - but when the Vikings discovered Vinland it was the middle of a warm spell (Hence, “Greenland” also was arable) so some wild grapes may have been present; although if you grew up in Greenland, any sort of decent forest, shrubbery, and vines would be welcome. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/25 "2020-01-03T19:01:21Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > Fermenting alcohol requires water, carbohydrates (sugar and, to some extent, starch), and yeast. > > With wine, grapes come with yeast as a package deal. (Klockera and Candida are wild yeasts) Well, that’s true of many fruits. Traditional apple cider is just apples crushed and left out for the natural yeasts to take over and go for it. I would expect anything that grows outside to have plenty of natural yeasts on it. Winemakers these days use cultured yeasts in order to control the fermentation and make it more predictable. (Sometimes, you get less desirable yeasts and bacteria on your fruit and, well, there goes a batch of whatever alcoholic drink you’re making.) I think part of what makes grapes work so well is their complexity of flavor. They seem to be especially suited for winemaking due to their balance of sugars, acidity, and tannins. The wines I’ve had from other fruits tend to be insipid compared to wine. The only fruit I think comes close is apple in terms of making cider, and using proper cidering apples in the mix to get the proper acidity and tannins for complexity of flavor. That said, they’re not quite as sugarry, so you’ll end up with a drink closer to 7-8% ABV unless you add additional sugar to it (and some places distinguish apple cider from apple wine based on ABV and the latter containing additional sugar in the fermentation process to boost the ABV.) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/26 "2020-01-03T20:19:13Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Grapes do grow in various places in Canada, they just aren’t the sort you’d want to make wine with except in the extreme south of some provinces - but when the Vikings discovered Vinland it was the middle of a warm spell (Hence, “Greenland” also was arable) so some wild grapes may have been present; although if you grew up in Greenland, any sort of decent forest, shrubbery, and vines would be welcome. Canada actually does have viticultural regions. For example the [Okanagan Valley](https://winebc.com/discover-bc-wine-country/okanagan-valley/) in BC. That area produces about a third of Canadian wines. Ontario actually produces more and there’s small production in several other provinces. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/27 "2020-01-03T21:08:37Z")
I’m betting there’s nothing overly special about grapes, other than they have a lot of sugar, are easily crushable/can crush under their own weight, and they have yeasts living naturally on the skin. Since wine’s and beer’s origins are both more or less contemporaneous sometime before 4000 BC, both probably some kind of fortuitous accidents involving gathered grapes or collected grain and water. I’d guess further and say that once they figured out how to make rudimentary wine, people got the bright idea to crush other fruits and ferment the juice. Meanwhile, grapes continued to be the pre-eminent fruit for winemaking, because they are still one of the most well suited to it. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/28 "2020-01-05T15:19:58Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > Grapes have the highest sugar content of any fruit they were primarily used for wine because it got you fucked up. Apples have most of the same properties that grapes due in terms of tannins and nutrients they are just lacking sugar content. That means you’ve got to pick more to get the same level of drunk. > > After apples the next level of fruit is so un sugary that they are rarely fermented on their own. For your uncles cherry wine I’m betting he sugared the hell out of it. Apple juice has about 50% more sugar than cherry. So you’re 5% abv cider would be about 3.5% abv cherry wine. Don’t _all_ wines have sugar added nowadays? The alternative would be to concentrate the juice before fermenting. Sure, grapes are pretty sweet, but not _that_ much sweeter than apples, peaches or whatever fruit! Or, you could of course just let the juice ferment in its natural state; but that would typically give you a wine with a fairly low alcohol percentage. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/29 "2020-01-05T16:26:19Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Or, you could of course just let the juice ferment in its natural state; but that would typically give you a wine with a fairly low alcohol percentage. Not that low. The US, France and other countries have laws in place that limit the amount of added sugar that can go into a wine. A 2% boost in alcohol seems to be the cut-off. In a good year, vintners need to add nothing to the must to get the target ABV. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/30 "2020-01-05T17:34:08Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > Don’t _all_ wines have sugar added nowadays? The alternative would be to concentrate the juice before fermenting. Sure, grapes are pretty sweet, but not _that_ much sweeter than apples, peaches or whatever fruit! I think you might be surprised. I have first-hand experience of making cider from apples, and second-hand experience making wine from grapes (I help my Italian friend every year de-stem and crush grapes for his winemaking.) An absolutely bone-dry completely fermented out apple cider for me has generally ended up at 7%. His wines usually end up at around 13% abv from Zinfandel grapes. [Here’s a table of Brix values](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/151.91) of various unconcentrated fruit juices. Brix values represent the sugar concentration of those juices. You will note that grapes are significantly higher than the fruits you mentioned. A Brix value of 21 (as in those grapes) corresponds to a potential alcohol level of 12.2% (Zinfandel grapes are often picked when they’re at Brix values of 23-25, which corresponds to 13.5-15.1% abv.) An apple juice’s average 13.3 Brix corresponds to 7.2% abv. Peach juice’s average of 11.8 Brix corresponds to a 6.3% abv potential. So, yes, grapes are quite a bit sweeter than those other fruits. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/31 "2020-01-05T17:40:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Something of a mistranslation. Grapes didn’t grow where the Vikings settled. Berries did, so it was probably intended to mean “Berryland” We dont know where the Vinland settlement was. Likely partly underwater now or built over. Maybe near or on Martha’s Vineyard, which is well known for it’s wild grapes. L’Anse aux Meadows was a small settlement used mostly for bog iron. A good place to pull in during the long trip to Vinland. [https://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/vinland/whereisvinland/isvinlandhere/4641en.html](https://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/vinland/whereisvinland/isvinlandhere/4641en.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/32 "2020-01-05T19:00:39Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I think you might be surprised. I have first-hand experience of making cider from apples, and second-hand experience making wine from grapes (I help my Italian friend every year de-stem and crush grapes for his winemaking.) An absolutely bone-dry completely fermented out apple cider for me has generally ended up at 7%. His wines usually end up at around 13% abv from Zinfandel grapes. > > [Here’s a table of Brix values](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/151.91) of various unconcentrated fruit juices. Brix values represent the sugar concentration of those juices. You will note that grapes are significantly higher than the fruits you mentioned. A Brix value of 21 (as in those grapes) corresponds to a potential alcohol level of 12.2% (Zinfandel grapes are often picked when they’re at Brix values of 23-25, which corresponds to 13.5-15.1% abv.) An apple juice’s average 13.3 Brix corresponds to 7.2% abv. Peach juice’s average of 11.8 Brix corresponds to a 6.3% abv potential. > > So, yes, grapes are quite a bit sweeter than those other fruits. I stand corrected. That table of Brix values is very educational; thank you! My own experience (by trial and error) is that you have to add about 1 kg of sugar to every 25 l of apple juice to make a decent dry cider! But, of course, this is a somewhat regional constant… (And don’t forget to vent the bottles twice every week or so the first months! Otherwise, you will have the caps implanted in the ceiling and the fermenting juice all over the kitchen floor! :() ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/33 "2020-01-05T19:41:43Z")
I’ve never needed to add sugar to the apples from my friend’s tree. I’m not sure what kind of apples they are — neither is he — but they’re some sort of apple that is somewhat sharp/acidic and tannic. Not a super sweet dessert apple, but it’s pleasant enough to eat out of hand. They produce about 6.5-7% cider without any additions. I put it in a primary for a week (sometimes more if i do a spontaneous ferment that can sometimes be slow to start), and then rack it to a secondary for a few months before bottling. Typically, I’d make it in October and not bottle until the spring. The aging makes a huge difference in flavor. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/34 "2020-01-06T00:05:27Z")
My curiosity about dandelion wine led me to Wikipedia on [fruit wines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_wine). > [@](#): > > Few foods other than grapes have the balanced quantities of sugar, acid, tannin, nutritive salts for yeast feeding and water to naturally produce a stable, drinkable wine, so most country wines are adjusted in one or more respects at fermentation. However, some of these products do require the addition of sugar or honey to make them palatable and to increase the alcoholic content… > > Many kinds of fruit have a natural acid content which would be too high to produce a savory and pleasant fruit wine in undiluted form… Therefore, much as to regulate sugar content, the fruit mash is generally topped up with water prior to fermentation to reduce the acidity to pleasant levels. This also dilutes and reduces overall fruit flavor; a loss of flavor can be compensated for by adding sugar again after fermentation which then acts as a flavor enhancer (known as a back-sweetener), while too much acid in the finished wine will always give it undesired harshness and poignancy. Poignant wine? As in: pointed, penetrating, painful. Like a gallon bottle of Red Mountain with the cap left off for a week. It’s not quite dingleberry wine, but it’s close. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/35 "2020-01-06T01:48:01Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > My Godmother used to make parsnip wine. It was pretty lethal, more akin to Vodka I think - no idea what the ABV was though but a couple of glasses knocked me right out. Parsnips are pretty loaded with sugar for a vegetable. I wonder what sugar beet wine would be like? ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/36 "2020-01-08T17:23:11Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > Parsnips are pretty loaded with sugar for a vegetable. I wonder what sugar beet wine would be like? I don’t know about the flavor but I really don’t think we need people with hangovers wondering why their pee is red. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/37 "2020-01-08T17:26:16Z")
> [@Alpha\_Twit](#): > > I don’t know about the flavor but I really don’t think we need people with hangovers wondering why their pee is red. Sugar beets are white and, in fact, look somewhat like parsnips. (Or am I missing the joke?) ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/38 "2020-01-08T17:42:14Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > Parsnips are pretty loaded with sugar for a vegetable. I wonder what sugar beet wine would be like? I’ve made a lot of “rum” with sugar beets but they are hard to work with directly so it’s from their molasses and processed sugar. The beets themselves are rather tough and not very juicy so simply pressing them doesn’t get out a lot of sugar. You’d need to mill them and cook them them in water for a while to release the sugar and it would be fairly dilute so you’d have to cook down the water which is basically the molasses process. ON the other hand sweet pumpkins make great booze after they’ve been roasted though you need tons to get even a single barrel of brandy. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/39 "2020-01-08T17:55:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [Here’s a table of Brix values](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/151.91) of various unconcentrated fruit juices. Brix values represent the sugar concentration of those juices. You will note that grapes are significantly higher than the fruits you mentioned. A Brix value of 21 (as in those grapes) corresponds to a potential alcohol level of 12.2% (Zinfandel grapes are often picked when they’re at Brix values of 23-25, which corresponds to 13.5-15.1% abv.) An apple juice’s average 13.3 Brix corresponds to 7.2% abv. Peach juice’s average of 11.8 Brix corresponds to a 6.3% abv potential. > > So, yes, grapes are quite a bit sweeter than those other fruits. I learned two things from that chart: First that people call some grapes “slipskin grapes” (i.e., Catawba, Concord, and Niagara grapes). I have always called these Labrusca grapes or North American grapes as a group. Mostly, I just referred to the three varieties as needed. Second, slipskin grapes are significantly lower in sugar than vinifera grapes. That relatively low sugar content explains why grandpa added so much sugar to his juice before fermentation. I knew it made a stronger (not sweeter) wine but I didn’t realize he was likely just bringing the sugar content up to the level of vinifera grapes. He did it by taste but his results were pretty consistent year-to-year. I would have guessed that he was making the must about 25% sweeter and that seems to be right about the difference in sugar levels between Labrusca and vinifera grapes. Wine from Concord grapes is an acquired taste but I can drink it for the nostalgia alone. Nobody makes it quite like grandpa though. ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713/40 "2020-01-08T22:14:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sugar beets are white and, in fact, look somewhat like parsnips. (Or am I missing the joke?) The joke is that apparently I don’t know enough about sugar beets to know that they are white. Idiocy exposed, ignorance fought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-grapes-become-the-defacto-wine-making-fruit/845713.md?page=3)