# Why did Heinlein report incorrectly about Cox in Starship Troopers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303 "2007-11-30T14:08:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/21 "2007-11-30T19:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but I know what you’re saying, and your words show your assumptions No, they don’t. I don’t assume that he had anything like full internet access. Your assumption isimply wrong. > [@](#): > > By using the words “a quick check,” you are proving my point: by using the phrase, you are assuming Heinlein had access to Wikipedia or the equivalent It’s not that difficult – I grew up pre-internet and did all my research using libraries. It’s not as ptrimitive as you think, and it would not have been that long a deal. But I’ve suggested that Heinlein probably would’ve heard of it when it happened, and he or his associates would probably have recalled it. > [@](#): > > Cite? What evidence do you have that he did? > [@](#): > > So, ultimately, all you have is your unsupported belief, and not a single fact. yes, indeedy – I’m ot trying to prove that Heinlein, in fact, knew this – I’m giving my reasons for thinking that he did. This isn’t an attempt to thrust out a belief and slap down anyone who dares disagree with me. I’m looking for what people think might be the cause. And if something seems less likely to me, I saty so, and say why. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/22 "2007-11-30T20:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] yes, indeedy – I’m ot trying to prove that Heinlein, in fact, knew this – I’m giving my reasons for thinking that he did. This isn’t an attempt to thrust out a belief and slap down anyone who dares disagree with me. I’m looking for what people think might be the cause. And if something seems less likely to me, I saty so, and say why. [/QUOTE] No, but you start with an assumption that is not yet in evidence. Your assumption is made on the basis of other assumptions that are also not particularly supported by evidence. Ockham would offer you some advice, if you’d only do a quick check. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/23 "2007-11-30T20:56:17Z")
> [@](#): > > No, but you start with an assumption that is not yet in evidence. Your assumption is made on the basis of other assumptions that are also not particularly supported by evidence. What’s the assumption? I asked why Heinlein did this – that makes no assumptions. I told you something of wh9ch way muy feelings lie. That makes assumptions, which I state (and which aren’t what **Reality** thinks they are), but none of that affects the question I ask in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/24 "2007-11-30T21:25:53Z")
I expect that Heinlein didn’t know about the reversed conviction, for the simple reason that if he had, the Colonel would have gone on for another half-page about how the reversal of Cox’s conviction 140-plus years later was a clear harbinger of the decay that led to their civilization’s downfall, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/25 "2007-11-30T22:10:02Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] I wonder if a thousand years from now dates will be in the form of AG and BG? [/QUOTE] Surely it should be GE and BGE, to avoid offending the devotees of other search engines! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/26 "2007-11-30T22:48:41Z")
What was the moral the commander was supposed to be conveying? Don’t leave your station for any reason or something? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/27 "2007-11-30T23:02:29Z")
That even if you make the best decisions possible with the best intentions possible, you can still screw up in totally unforseen and unforseeable ways…and you still will be held responsible for those decisions, regardless of how unforseeable the bad consequences might have been. Of course, the more realistic scenario is that you get yourself and your men killed because you made a correct decision based on the best possible information, yet because of unforseen circumstance X, you’re still all dead. But because these MI officer candidates (and the reader along with them) arre pretty much desensitized to the idea that people die due to random shit during war, hitting them with the notion that their honor could be besmirched due to random shit during the war is even more frightening than the possibility of death. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/28 "2007-12-01T02:00:44Z")
It’s entirely possible Heinlein knew it. He just felt the character either wouldn’t, or the character felt the story was better the way it was. Starship Troopers is an interestingly subversive book. Try to figure out what’s going on from the perspective of the other characters, rather than through the barely-adult main character. It becomes a lot more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/29 "2007-12-01T20:07:12Z")
Alternative time line perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/30 "2007-12-02T03:32:12Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] It’s entirely possible Heinlein knew it. He just felt the character either wouldn’t, or the character felt the story was better the way it was. [/QUOTE] Y’know, I was thinking the same thing going through this thread… what if RH is portraying the sort of a character who believes in “don’t let the facts get in the way of the point”? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/31 "2007-12-02T05:38:02Z")
[QUOTE=JRDelirious] Y’know, I was thinking the same thing going through this thread… what if RH is portraying the sort of a character who believes in “don’t let the facts get in the way of the point”? [/QUOTE] I guess that’s how I took it (and I hadn’t known of Truman’s decision until I read this thread - thanks, **CalMeacham**!). Remember that the Earth government of _Starship Troopers_ is much more militaristic/harsh than contemporary American society (yes, even since 9-11), with voting restricted to veterans, public floggings, etc., and if the Cox story scared some young officers into being particularly committed to doing their duty, then so much the better, by their CO’s lights. (Cox served aboard the USS _Chesapeake_, not her adversary the HMS _Shannon_, BTW). “Don’t Give Up the Ship!” ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/32 "2007-12-02T05:44:24Z")
It’s highly likely that Heinlein _did_ know it. Heinlein was a _voracious_ reader and read several newspapers a day, as well as a regular subscriber to numerous scientific journals (later on in life, Heinlein went _back_ to college [at age 60, IIRC] to bone up one the new developments in physics). Also, in _Expanded Universe_, Heinlein rails against _Time_ magazine at least once (saying that they never could get a story straight). So I don’t think that he would have missed it. We _are_ talking about a man who got bounced out of the Navy on a medical discharge, but kept as close as he could to the Navy. He worked, as a civilian, for the Navy during WWII, and not _once_ spoke of the classified projects he was involved with. And now, that I think about it, one of Heinlein’s _brothers made admiral_ and Heinlein mentioned this when he was given a Grand Master Award, so the odds of him **not** knowing it, are, IMHO, nil. As to why he presented it wrongly, well, even Heinlein admitted that sometimes fiction made a better story than the truth. Anyone wanting as definative an answer to the matter as can be had without asking ol’ Bob, could probably find it [here.](http://www.heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2007, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/33 "2007-12-03T03:45:49Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] … awfuklness … [/QUOTE] This is my new favourite typo. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/34 "2007-12-03T04:07:08Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I’ve got the book on audio, and have listened to it several times on my current long commute. You hear things that your eyes missed in previous readings. (I’ve got Stranger in a Strange Land on audio, too. Dang, I wish they’d release more classic SF on audio.) [/QUOTE] Have you tried Audible? Great if you have an Audible-compatible MP3 player (which is most of them but especially the iPod) as it’s just one or two or three files for an entire book instead of like 15 CDs. Pretty good classic sci-fi selection too. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/35 "2008-03-28T15:30:12Z")
Pardon the zombie thread… Just read an interesting article in the August 2007 issue of _Naval History_ magazine, Robert E. Cray Jr.'s “Explaining Defeat: The Loss of the USS _Chesapeake_,” which mentions the Cox controversy in passing. Doesn’t mention his 1952 vindication, though. There were several other Navy disciplinary actions after the battle, according to the article. A midshipman was dismissed for drunkenness, an acting midshipman was reprimanded for “assuming an alias to win parole from the British,” a seaman lost his wages for gross misconduct, and “a black bugler… was sentenced to 300 lashes plus loss of pay for cowardice, for failing to blow his bugle at a crucial moment. President James Madison mitigated the penalty to 100 lashes.” ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/36 "2008-03-28T23:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] I guess that’s how I took it (and I hadn’t known of Truman’s decision until I read this thread - thanks, **CalMeacham**!). Remember that the Earth government of _Starship Troopers_ is much more militaristic/harsh than contemporary American society (yes, even since 9-11), with voting restricted to veterans, public floggings, etc., and if the Cox story scared some young officers into being particularly committed to doing their duty, then so much the better, by their CO’s lights. (Cox served aboard the USS _Chesapeake_, not her adversary the HMS _Shannon_, BTW). “Don’t Give Up the Ship!” [/QUOTE] I don’t necessarily know if it was militaristic. A stratified society, yes, wherein the franchise needed to be earned by civil service (not always military duty, but the story was about a soldier, and thus focused on that). Rico’s parents were wealthy (despite not being citizens) and in fact were unhappy about his decision to join up. It appears the only rights a citizen has beyond the norm would be the right to vote and hold public office (plus a few jobs, such as police, which fits the mold there). Harsh, yes, but I seemto recall a comment made that crime and such were MUCH lower beacuse of it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/37 "2008-03-29T00:57:31Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] I don’t necessarily know if it was militaristic. A stratified society, yes, wherein the franchise needed to be earned by civil service (not always military duty, but the story was about a soldier, and thus focused on that). Rico’s parents were wealthy (despite not being citizens) and in fact were unhappy about his decision to join up. It appears the only rights a citizen has beyond the norm would be the right to vote and hold public office (plus a few jobs, such as police, which fits the mold there). Harsh, yes, but I seemto recall a comment made that crime and such were MUCH lower beacuse of it. [/QUOTE] Pardon me for being dense, but did Heinlein explain how losing the right to vote greatly reduced crime? (I haven’t read the book in over 30 years.) ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/38 "2008-03-29T02:03:04Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Pardon me for being dense, but did Heinlein explain how losing the right to vote greatly reduced crime? (I haven’t read the book in over 30 years.) [/QUOTE] It didn’t. The incredibly harsh punishments meted out for even minor infractions reduced crime. Mostly by eliminating criminals. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/39 "2008-03-29T02:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] It didn’t. The incredibly harsh punishments meted out for even minor infractions reduced crime. Mostly by eliminating criminals. [/QUOTE] Ah. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303/40 "2008-03-29T04:10:43Z")
At the risk of sounding like I disagree with **Zakalwe** ’s analysis, it was just a tad more involved than that. My recollection is that the culture had developed a morality that was rooted in philosophy rather than theology (hence the high-school level course called “History and Moral Philosophy” which Juan is taking at the beginning of the book — a course which must be taught by a veteran). Rather than being based on the edicts of an invisible being, it started with an individual’s self-interest and worked its way up through the duties owed to one’s family, friends, community, and society. As such, it could be taught much more effectively, and produced citizens (and legal residents such as Juan’s parents) who were much more aware of what they owed to those around them and were therefore much less inclined toward crime. And for those who simply couldn’t absorb the message, there remained twenty lashes in the public square, as well as the “short drop and quick stop.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-heinlein-report-incorrectly-about-cox-in-starship-troopers/428303.md?page=3)