# Why did it take so long for semi-automatic pistols to gain acceptance for civilians/law enforcement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 22, 2017, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345 "2017-08-22T08:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Renz\_Medicinal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Renz\_Medicinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renz_Medicinal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/42 "2017-08-23T08:10:59Z")
I think before the issue of reliability, there was safety. The Beretta was the first double-action semi-automatic to be deemed safe and reliable enough, mainly because it avoided condition 1 carry. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/43 "2017-08-23T09:27:32Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What kind of accuracy is required to pass the various tests? Using FBI Q targets an overall score of 80 or above. That’s with 60 rounds day and 50 night. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/44 "2017-08-23T10:12:10Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Using FBI Q targets an overall score of 80 or above. That’s with 60 rounds day and 50 night. Like this? [https://shop.actiontarget.com/images/QIT-03CB\_L.jpg](https://shop.actiontarget.com/images/QIT-03CB_L.jpg) How many points for one hit in the bottle-shaped part? How many points in the two rectangles? I suppose it’s uncouth to Mozambique drill the targets during one’s test. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/45 "2017-08-23T14:36:31Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Like this? [https://shop.actiontarget.com/images/QIT-03CB\_L.jpg](https://shop.actiontarget.com/images/QIT-03CB_L.jpg) > > How many points for one hit in the bottle-shaped part? How many points in the two rectangles? > > I suppose it’s uncouth to Mozambique drill the targets during one’s test. [https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/q-t-standard-fbi-dea-q-target-on-manila-target-paper.asp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMPp2cjt1QIVnrjACh0kSA7zEAQYASABEgKFsPD\_BwE](https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/q-t-standard-fbi-dea-q-target-on-manila-target-paper.asp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMPp2cjt1QIVnrjACh0kSA7zEAQYASABEgKFsPD_BwE) A Q target. If I ever knew why it was a Q and not a B or a Z I’ve forgotten. Anything on the target is a hit. The target area is a little smaller than the average head and torso. Qualifying is 80%. I’ve been qualifying twice a year for 20 years you would think I have this memorized. I think it’s 60 rounds day, 50 for night. You do the math. It’s pretty easy to get in the high 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/46 "2017-08-23T14:48:54Z")
Thank you **Corry El.** (Odd nobody has mentioned the Colt .32) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/47 "2017-08-23T15:10:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I can only answer for New Jersey. We have semi-annual weapons qualifications. The course is from 1 yard hip shooting out to 25 yards. There is a day and a night phase. I can’t remember exactly how many rounds but a decent percentage of the shots are off hand unsupported. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/48 "2017-08-23T15:11:50Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > NB: > > 1. .38 Long Colt, a black powder cartridge, was being replaced, not the common-today .38 Special which is a bit more powerful. > > 2. And the .45 Colt mentioned in the report is different than the 1911’s .45 ACP. Two small clarifications 1. .38 LC was originally a black powder cartridge but was converted to smokeless during the period of service of the Navy/Army M1889-1905 type revolvers. It’s sometimes said that occurred from 1900 and here’s evidence of .38 LC smokeless ammo on hand from that year, but it might have been before. [Ordnance Supply Manual - George L. Lohrer - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=-pgtAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA593&dq=.38+revolver+smokeless&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVnqPcyu3VAhXsxYMKHZdoDsAQ6AEIPTAE#v=onepage&q=.38%20revolver%20smokeless&f=false) p.593 It didn’t do anything about the round’s lack of power though. Period documents show even .45/70 rifle rounds were loaded with smokeless ca. 1898, see pg. 800, and that cartridge is usually thought of as strictly black powder. > **[Congressional Serial Set](https://books.google.com/books?id=ZhcoAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA800&dq=.38%2Brevolver%2Bsmokeless&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVnqPcyu3VAhXsxYMKHZdoDsAQ6AEIRzAG#v=onepage&q=smokeless&f=false)** > > Reports, Documents, and Journals of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives. 1. True, and the new .45 revolvers entering service in the pre M1911 period, M1909 for US military and M1902 bought for Philippine Constabulary were .45 Colt. But they were relatively few (~14,000 and a few 1,000). OTOH the Army bought around 300,000 .45 revolvers during WWI and those were .45 ACP, and many surviving M1909’s were converted to it at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Renz\_Medicinal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Renz\_Medicinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renz_Medicinal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/49 "2017-08-29T00:31:28Z")
Read about the Miami shootout just now. I find the conclusions arguable. Among those: 1. Revolvers are a no-no since they are hard to reload at best and almost impossible when one is wounded. 2. 9mm was and will always be a puny round. Solution: A more powerful automatic. Wrong. It seems .40 and .357 autos are wearing down faster than .45 and 9mm arms, and shooters seem to be more comfortable with 15 9mm rounds than fewer more powerful rounds. Many cannot control the recoil of the .40 and .357 The shootout involved suspects and FBI agents in parked vehicles. The two suspects had long weapons while the agents had 38/357 revolvers and 9mm autos (plus two shotguns.) In this kind of shootout, it’s hard kill your opponent because he has cover. All you can do is throw a lot of lead at each other, and get wounded in the arms, face, and other parts. The two agents killed had 15-shot SW 59’s (9mm). It would have gone that way on all day until both sides decided on a more aggressive tactic. The suspect with the ruger mini 14, already wounded in pany parts, simply snuck around the two agents’ car, rushed them and shot both at point blank. When the two suspects went to a vehicle, one wounded agent took out his personal .357, reached into the car in killed both instantly. Of the 8 agents, two died and only one was not wounded. Solution: every car must have a long arm. When your opponents are armed with mini 14’s and a shotgun and you only have handguns, take cover and call for back up. If you’re a good shot, go with powerful rounds (5 will do in most cases.) If not, high capacity 9mm. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/50 "2017-08-29T22:12:52Z")
You left out many other places the Fibbies tramped on they peckers in that particular goatfuck. Who had what guns is a secondary issue. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/51 "2017-08-29T23:09:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do law enforcement even practice firing a sidearm with the off hand? Yes. In Wisconsin it is part of the annual state mandated qualification course. > [@Scumpup](#): > > In a roundabout way, it was. The FBI’s sub-optimal choices of cartridge and platform led to the [development of the .40 S&W](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W). I have seen a training video discussing this. It said that even if the perp had been shot in an operating room he was going to die no matter what, and had the FBI used better ammo he’d of dropped like a stone instead of surviving long enough to cause harm. The FBI Miami shootout happened in 1986. Few agencies had even switched to the 9mm by then. I didn’t get issued a 9mm until 1991. And it was the mid/late 90’s before many agencies switched to the .40. I read an article (no cite available at this time) that said the 40 is not proving to be the manstopper everyone hoped for, and some agencies are going back to the 9mm. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Was there ever widespread adoption of .357? It was the most popular police handgun at one time, although many agencies loaded them with .38 special rather than full .357 loads. My agency loaded 158gr hollow point in .357 until it switched to semi-autos in the early 90’s. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What kind of accuracy is required to pass the various tests? In Wisconsin it’s 100%. During the first 15 yards all rounds must be in the “T zone”. From 15-25 yards they must be on the target in the human form silhouette. Any rounds outside of these standards is a miss and thus a fail. It’s a much tougher course than in years past. And retired officers carrying under HR218 must pass the same course. Which makes it extremely difficult for retirees wishing to carry small concealable .380’s. They can be difficult to shoot (high recoil) and are rather inaccurate with their short barrel to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Renz\_Medicinal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Renz\_Medicinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renz_Medicinal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/52 "2017-08-29T23:29:42Z")
When I worked in the Constabulary as a civilian employee, a captain kept harping that everyone wanted to carry .45’s and .357’s. This was before anything in 9mm was in vogue except maybe the Browning Hi-power. He said one well-placed bullet (9mm power?) can incapacitate or put away a suspect, unless he’s armored or bunkered up. If you’re up against “long” firepower, no handgun will help you. So he said tote a baby Armalite or a shotgun, and save 1 pound of baggage by carrying a snub or a small automatic (he showed me his Browning .32) He also said something concerning stopping power and multiple shots. “That’s right, double tap someone in the body and waste one (possibly two) bullets.” A doped up or very sturdy fellow can take two .45 slugs in the body and still continue to fire. As for him, he goes for head shots. One last thing, he’s one of the best pistol shots I’ve ever seen: consistent hits on a head-sized target out to 25 yards with a small auto. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/53 "2017-08-30T00:02:52Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I didn’t get issued a 9mm until 1991. And it was the mid/late 90’s before many agencies switched to the .40. I spent 10 years part-timing in a buy-yer-own-gun agency. When I started in 96ish, I used a S&W 4566 because it was the only regs-meeting handgun I owned. All the full-timers were using Glock 9mms. The Sheriff His Own Self carried whatever the fuck he felt like wearing that day…usually a Colt 1911 .45 acp. By the time i turned in my badge, I had carried an H&K USP40 for a bit and then transitioned to a 1911 of my own. Glock 9mms continued to dominate, but that was IMO mostly because with the LE discount they were very affordable and (this is important) most LE don’t give a shit about their sidearm. The Glock’s rep for needing no care or cleaning whatsoever is powerfully attractive to such people. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/54 "2017-08-30T00:07:11Z")
> [@Renz\_Medicinal](#): > > consistent hits on a head-sized target out to 25 yards with a small auto. That’s no more than okayish shooting on a still target at a known range. My daughter can do that well at twice that range with my [Beretta 21A](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_21A_Bobcat) and she is only a casual shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Renz\_Medicinal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Renz\_Medicinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renz_Medicinal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345/55 "2017-08-30T01:51:58Z")
50 yards. Hmmm. A guaranteed hit in the noggin at half that distance with a palm-sized weapon is already, say, a lethal skill? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-it-take-so-long-for-semi-automatic-pistols-to-gain-acceptance-for-civilians-law-enforcement/794345.md?page=2)