# Why did Jesus die so soon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309 "2000-09-15T15:59:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/61 "2000-09-28T19:36:11Z")
He will see his offspring and prolong his days? Hmm… well, the fact that there are still Christians, and people are still talking about him kind of fulfills this if you aren’t too literal. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/62 "2000-09-28T20:57:11Z")
Well, there are still Teamsters around and they still talk about Jimmy Hoffa but it doesn’t make him the Messiah either. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/63 "2000-09-28T21:46:28Z")
Well, Hoffa might be part of a concrete reinforced beam in a skyscaper somewhere, but that doesn’t mean he’s really “risen” from the dead. There is more than one way to prolong your days. Another thing with the offspring is, since there are multiply “he”'s in these verses, “his offspring” might mean Jesus was God’s offspring, not that Jesus would have ofspring. Not that Isaiah would be the first prophesy to be written a little vague and open to interp. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/64 "2000-09-28T22:24:28Z")
Well sure, if you want to start twisting the meaning of words around and take things out of context, which is what Christianity is centered around. It would be one thing if Isaiah was refering to the Messiah here, which he isn’t when taken IN CONTEXT of the four Servant Songs found in chapters 42-53. But I digress, we’ll stick with the Christian interpretation. The problem is the text’s meaning in Hebrew (ya’arich yamim) means a life that comes to an end, a mortal life. There is a different term in Hebrew when meant to refer to and extended resurrected life (l’chayai olam). Multiple “he’s”? Ah, the truth by dangling participle! So one he refers to the Messiah, and one refers to God? And the rest of the “he’s” and “his”? Interesting thought. Makes no sense, but interesting none the less. The verse:_And the Lord wished to crush **him** , He made **him** ill; if **his** soul makes itself restitution, **he** shall see seed, He shall prolong **his** days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in **his** hand._ The effector and the effectee seems perfectly clear to me, but I don’t need to be creative with interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/65 "2000-09-29T17:40:40Z")
Excuse me, but where did this come from? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*\*emarkp \*\* > > There was no resurrection before Christ’s atonement, and the gulf between paradise and hell was uncrossable–this fundamentally changed once He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane as well as on the cross, and rose from the dead. **Christ (or Jehovah as He was called in the old testament)** could forgive sins, for sure. Emphasis mine. Jesus was not called by any name in the old testament. Jehovah AKA YHVH or Yahweh, at least according to the Catholic and Episcopal churches, is God the Father. Jesus is the son of God. Is there any sect that believes that Jehovah and Jesus are one? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/66 "2000-09-29T17:51:47Z")
Um…just about all of them? Don’t forget about the Holy Spirit, too! But the statement that Jesus was called “Jehovah” in the OT was a bit misleading, I agree; Jesus _was_ Jehovah in the OT (acc’ding to Christians), same as He was in the NT. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/67 "2000-09-29T18:19:57Z")
Not according to my indoctrination in the Episcopal church. Jehovah (God the father), Jesus (God the son) and the Holy Ghost may be three in one, they are three distinct persons. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/68 "2000-09-29T18:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mayor Quimby \* > It would be one thing if Isaiah was refering to the Messiah here, which he isn’t when taken IN CONTEXT of the four Servant Songs found in chapters 42-53. But I digress, we’ll stick with the Christian interpretation. I’ll have to read those chapters. > [@](#): > > The problem is the text’s meaning in Hebrew (ya’arich yamim) means a life that comes to an end, a mortal life. There is a different term in Hebrew when meant to refer to and extended resurrected life (l’chayai olam). There was a word for that? How many people were walking around back then with “extended resurrected lives” that such a term would have been in the common parlance? What is the big difference? What does “prolonged” mean to you? > [@](#): > > The verse:_And the Lord wished to crush **him** , He made **him** ill; if **his** soul makes itself restitution, **he** shall see seed, He shall prolong **his** days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in **his** hand._ Oh, well if you but it that way, I saw seed when I had that Big Mac for lunch. 😃 Two all beef patties… well, you know the rest. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Gaudere** \* > **Um…just about all of them?** I’m not sure the trinitarian churches would exactly agree with this. The Son and the Father are not the same persons and never have been. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/69 "2000-09-29T18:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Jehovah (God the father), Jesus (God the son) and the Holy Ghost may be three in one, they are three distinct persons. So, three separate person, but one…what? I have heard nearly everything used as an explanation for the nature of a triune God, from “masks” to 3-in-1 oil to “it is an ineffable mystery how three can be one”, so I guess I am a bit confused. I was assuming there was one God, just different aspects or manifestations. If Jesus is the One God, and Jehovah is the One God, and the Holy Spirit is the One God, is it wrong to say the Jesus is also Jehovah? In what manner is Jesus genuinely separate from Jehovah? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/70 "2000-09-29T20:15:02Z")
**Gaudere** I’m prolly not the one to defend or explain the “divine mystries” since I don’t buy 'em. But as I recall, Jesus prayed to…Ummm… his father in heaven. So, to Jesus, there is an other to pray to. The whole three in one - one in three, trinity thingy was to make this consistent with there being only one god. I forget how the Holy Ghost is supposed to fit in. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/71 "2000-09-29T20:18:21Z")
Love, Lover, Loved. I forget which one is which though… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/72 "2000-09-29T20:21:11Z")
I don’t believe either, but I’d like to have at least a clue what’s going on with the 1+1+1=1 bit and the long, involved analolgy-ridden explanations I’ve been given so far seem to have been insufficient for my comprehension. I’ll spin off a thread. Probably not a hot Friday night topic, but maybe some Christian can enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/73 "2000-09-29T20:41:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*\*jmullaney \*\* > Love, Lover, Loved. I forget which one is which though… I remember that one. God the Father is the lover, Jesus is the beloved, and the Holy Ghost is the love. Sort of a parallel to a marriage. Actually an incestuous same-sex marriage if you think about it. It helps if you don’t think about it too much. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/74 "2000-09-29T21:20:07Z")
Amazingly, yes, there were terms for that. \*ya’arich yamim \* A long life which eventually comes to an end as found in Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13 _l’chayai olam_ An extended resurected life as found in Daniel 12:2. Mmmmm . . . special sauce. The best explanation I’ve heard for the Trinity is that of water in it’s various physical states, vapor, liquid and solid. While they are all H20, ice has different physical properties than liquid water. Water vapor has different physical properties than liquid water and ice, etc. In other words, each member is of the same substance, but each also has different roles and properties than the other. I’ve always understood it as God the father, Jesus the redeemer and the Holy Spirit the comforter. But that was back in my Christian days. I know better now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/75 "2000-09-30T06:51:53Z")
Unfortunately, the analogy of the trinity to ice/steam/water is called modalism and was declared a heresy in the 4th or 5th century. Three persons, one essence (as I understand the orthodox trinity). As for Jesus=Jehovah, there are a few supporting verses, the most notable being John 8:58, Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. The “I AM” is precisely the same phrase as the one who spoke to Moses. The locals were so outraged by this “blasphemy” that they took up stones to kill him. Since I’m LDS, I also draw on the Book of Mormon. There, the evidence for me is clearest, when Jesus says (after his resurrection): Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end. (3 Nephi 15:5) ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2000, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309/76 "2000-09-30T09:20:05Z")
You’ll get no arguement from me. Of course, I consider all of Christianity and it’s numerous incantations to be a heresy, trinity or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-jesus-die-so-soon/33309.md?page=3)