# Why did large land mammals survive in Africa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510 "2010-11-04T21:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/41 "2010-11-05T18:30:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Barnosky et al., which I’ve cited to you before, and you cite above, but have obviously never read, is the most thorough review on the subject. Their strong conclusion is that the main factor on a global scale was humans, with climate playing a role in some area. I have read it, I have cited it to you, rather than the opposite, and I agree that is their conclusion. However, do you agree they also state that there is “great debate” and not “consensus” on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/42 "2010-11-05T18:33:57Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > But humans are the only cause all the events have in common. It seems to me to be special pleading to keep inserting “climate change” as a cause when it only applies to some cases. And there’s a conflict of interest here – it’s _humans_ who seem to be arguing that “humans weren’t the only cause.” I have no doubt that a desire to somehow absolve humanity could color some peoples’ views – even scientists have their blind spots. No, like I have shown, in both cases climate change is also a common cause. In the two areas without mass megafuanal extinctions- Asia and Africa- there was little or no climate change. I can equally argue the opposite. Many scientists today are concenred that human’s are cuasing great changes which may lead to extinction. Thus, there’s a desire to show that past extictions were caused by humans. ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/43 "2010-11-05T18:40:50Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As a followup, I’ve done a considerable review of the scientific literature on the subject. While alternative explanations have been advanced for local megafaunal extinctions on particular continents, such as climate change, disease, an asteroid impact, and so forth, I am unaware of any analysis of the overall global patterns that can explain why the extinction was less in Africa based on any factor other than the differential impact of humans. I’ve been wondering this and maybe you’ve come across an answer: For scientists who advocate the climate change hypothesis, how do they explain the fact that many species of large mammals survived the changes in climate during and between the previous glacial periods? Is there evidence that the end of the last ice age was particularly dramatic or unusual? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/44 "2010-11-05T18:55:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have read it, I have cited it to you, rather than the opposite, and I agree that is their conclusion. No, I cited it you originally, quite a few years ago. But I don’t expect you to remember that, since you always bring it up as if it were the first time we’ve discussed it. ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/45 "2010-11-05T18:56:17Z")
Never mind my above question. I just got to reading the subsequent posts and I don’t want to fan any flames. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/46 "2010-11-05T18:58:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s odd that a small handful of humans with flint spears could eradicate so many sucessful land mammal mega-faunal species, while tens of thousands of times more people, armed with repeating rifles- couldn’t do that same. Bison were very nearly deliberately hunted to extinction in a few decades. It was only through determined conservation efforts by a few people that they weren’t exterminated. They went from tens of millions to less than a thousand. This is a pretty famous example of near-extinction that many people have heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/47 "2010-11-05T18:59:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, like I have shown, in both cases climate change is also a common cause. You haven’t shown anything of the sort. > [@](#): > > In the two areas without mass megafuanal extinctions- Asia and Africa- there was little or no climate change. This is absurdly false. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/48 "2010-11-05T19:06:27Z")
> [@EdwardLost](#): > > I’ve been wondering this and maybe you’ve come across an answer: For scientists who advocate the climate change hypothesis, how do they explain the fact that many species of large mammals survived the changes in climate during and between the previous glacial periods? Is there evidence that the end of the last ice age was particularly dramatic or unusual? No, it wasn’t. Most of the animals that went extinct at the end of the Pleistocene had previously survived just as extreme changes in climate at the end of other glacial cycles. This is in fact one of the most critical objections to the climate change hypothesis. > [@EdwardLost](#): > > Never mind my above question. > > I just got to reading the subsequent posts and I don’t want to fan any flames. I don’t mind addressing questions from others. However, I’ve been over this ground so often before with **DrDeth** that it’s not worth going over it again with him. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/49 "2010-11-05T19:15:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No, I cited it you originally, quite a few years ago. But I don’t expect you to remember that, since you always bring it up as if it were the first time we’ve discussed it. Does it matter? OK, let us accept that cite as the Gold Standard then, OK? Let us call it “your cite”. Great. Does your cite not use the term “_great debate_” as opposed to “consensus”? Does the cite anywhere say there is _consensus?_ Does it not say _exactly the opposite?_ Now, as for climate change being **one** of the causes, does your cite also not state that “evidence suggests that the intersection of human impacts with pronounced climatic change drove the precise timing and geography of extinction in the Northern Hemisphere.” At least as far as NA goes, does that not agree that \*pronounced climatic change \* is **part** of the cause? Does not the cite also say that “human hunting was not solely responsible for the pattern of extinction everywhere”? Was then human hunting solely responsible for the pattern of extinction everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![EdwardLost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@EdwardLost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwardLost)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/50 "2010-11-05T19:32:24Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Regarding farming, one influence in Africa and India is(was) the presence of elephants: a herd of elephants can easily wipe out a farm, and before the invention of guns their presence was a limiting factor on how successful farming could be. > > In fact, this touches on a pet theory of mine: that in addition to humans seizing the econiche of apex predator, when humans took up farming they replaced or competed with proboscideans for the role of what might be termed “apex herbivore”. That is, herbivores that as adults are nearly immune to predation and as part of their feeding process destroy woodlands. It seems to me that the lingering presence of elephants in India might be because they don’t compete with farmers. Farmers would cut down forests, driving out the local elephants into the remaining forest. Eventually the land would play out for agriculture, the farmers would move on, the forest would regrow, and the elephants would move back in. Humans and elephants would do this minuet across the landscape for millennia. ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/51 "2010-11-05T20:17:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does not the cite also say that “human hunting was not solely responsible for the pattern of extinction everywhere”? Was then human hunting solely responsible for the pattern of extinction everywhere? Somethign to note in your cite: Colibiri has not, in thei thread, asserted that human HUNTING was responsible for the decline of the species. It is certainly one of the contributing factors in many cases, but I have not seen him assert that human hunting was responsible for all of it. Mostly he seems to be asserting that human colocation with megafauna was responsible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/52 "2010-11-05T20:32:52Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > Somethign to note in your cite: Colibiri has not, in thei thread, asserted that human HUNTING was responsible for the decline of the species. It is certainly one of the contributing factors in many cases, but I have not seen him assert that human hunting was responsible for all of it. Mostly he seems to be asserting that human colocation with megafauna was responsible. True, but I did not say he made such a assertion. Others here seem to have drawn the conclusion that human hunting was how man made species extinct, so I needed to make that point clear. In fact, in other threads, both \*\*Colibri \*\*and **Blake** have said that human caused changes to the environment- such as mass burning- are a cause. In fact, I agree with them, and I further think that such human caused environmental modifications were a greater cause than actual hunting (I am not sure where Blake and Colibri stand on that issue). The “blitzkrieg hypothesis” where human hunting was the sole cause of extinctions has been completely and totally discredited. Colibri has agreed with me on that. In fact, we _mostly_ agree. We both agree that humans were a significant cause of the megafaunal extinctions, I just say that climate changes were also critical (esp in NA). I say that the causes of the megafaunal extinctions are a subject of great debate and disagreement among the scientific community, he sez there is “consensus”. In many island based extinctions, it’s more often the rats that humans inadvertently carried along that caused extinctions. No doubt at all that Humans- even if indirectly- caused many island based extinctions. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/53 "2010-11-05T20:35:27Z")
> [@crazyjoe](#): > > Somethign to note in your cite: Colibiri has not, in thei thread, asserted that human HUNTING was responsible for the decline of the species. It is certainly one of the contributing factors in many cases, but I have not seen him assert that human hunting was responsible for all of it. Mostly he seems to be asserting that human colocation with megafauna was responsible. No I haven’t (although that was probably one of the most significant human impacts). That just happens to be one of **DrDeth’s** hobbyhorses, which he will drag into the thread whether anyone has made the claim or not, and then debate this straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/54 "2010-11-05T22:36:29Z")
> [@EdwardLost](#): > > It seems to me that the lingering presence of elephants in India might be because they don’t compete with farmers. Farmers would cut down forests, driving out the local elephants into the remaining forest. Eventually the land would play out for agriculture, the farmers would move on, the forest would regrow, and the elephants would move back in. Humans and elephants would do this minuet across the landscape for millennia. The destructive impact of elephants on farms is well documented. In India, elephant herds on stampede would occasionally destroy entire villages. Yes humans were predatory enough that elephants would move on if they had anywhere to go; but rather than starve to death while a field of yummy crops was just sitting there, a herd of three-ton animals would be rather difficult to deter with sharp sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/55 "2010-11-05T23:03:44Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Regarding farming, one influence in Africa and India is(was) the presence of elephants: a herd of elephants can easily wipe out a farm, and before the invention of guns their presence was a limiting factor on how successful farming could be. > > In fact, this touches on a pet theory of mine: that in addition to humans seizing the econiche of apex predator, when humans took up farming they replaced or competed with proboscideans for the role of what might be termed “apex herbivore”. That is, herbivores that as adults are nearly immune to predation and as part of their feeding process destroy woodlands. How does this gel with the fact that Africa started out with 6 elephant species, including mammoths, and by the invention of agriculture only three remained? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/56 "2010-11-06T01:45:40Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How does this gel with the fact that Africa started out with 6 elephant species, including mammoths, and by the invention of agriculture only three remained? I hadn’t heard; which African species went extinct and when? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/57 "2010-11-06T02:15:31Z")
I’m amending my position on this because I was making the mistake of concentrating on the concept of humans deliberately hunting and killing megafauna as a cause of extinction. But that was not really part of the OP, and an invalid assumption on my part. I stilll contend that the cause of megafauna extinction could be purely environmental, in terms of the capacity of the environment to support the number of species and population sizes. But as **Blake** ,\*\* Colibri\*\*, and others point out, humans are large consumers of environmental resources aside from hunting. Africa was the one continent where human and non-human populations evolved together. Humans were invaders in the other continents, and those environments had not evolved to include their presence. Even without hunting, there was still agriculture, fire, land occupation, and overconsumption of food sources as an impact. Considering that, many species may have survived climate changes or other factors had they not competed with humans for resources. So I think those citing the long evolution of humans and other species together in Africa are right. My apologies for being argumentative over my own mistaken assumption. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/58 "2010-11-06T06:50:28Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I hadn’t heard; which African species went extinct and when? The only one I can find (that went extinct in the last 15000 years in Africa) is (wiki) _"The North African Elephant (Loxodonta africana pharaoensis) was a possible subspecies of the African Bush Elephant (L_oxodonta africana\*), or possibly a separate elephant species, that existed in North Africa until becoming extinct in Ancient Roman times".\* One can argue that’s maybe just a sub-species. There’s also the (wiki)"_Elephas recki_ is an extinct species of African elephant. At up to 15 feet (4.5 metres) in shoulder height, it was one of the largest elephant species to have ever lived. It is believed that E. recki ranged throughout Africa between 3.5 and 1 million years ago. " but it went extinct far too long ago for these purposes. Possible we could include (wiki) "T_he North African Elephant (Loxodonta africana pharaoensis) was a possible subspecies of the African Bush Elephant (Loxodonta africana), or possibly a separate elephant species, that existed in North Africa until becoming extinct in Ancient Roman times."_ The African Mammoth, _Mammuthus africanavus_ was a Pliocene species. > **[Elephantidae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elephant_species)** > > Elephantidae is a family of large, herbivorous proboscidean mammals which includes the living elephants (belonging to the genera Elephas and Loxodonta), as well as a number of extinct genera like Mammuthus (mammoths) and Palaeoloxodon. They are large terrestrial mammals with a snout modified into a trunk and teeth modified into tusks. Most genera and species in the family are extinct. Some extinct members are among the largest known terrestrial mammals ever. > The family was first described by J... ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/59 "2010-11-06T17:35:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The only one I can find (that went extinct in the last 15000 years in Africa) is (wiki) > _"The North African Elephant (Loxodonta africana pharaoensis) was a possible subspecies of the African Bush Elephant (L_oxodonta africana\*), or possibly a separate elephant species, that existed in North Africa until becoming extinct in Ancient Roman times".\* One can argue that’s maybe just a sub-species. > > There’s also the (wiki)"_Elephas recki_ is an extinct species of African elephant. At up to 15 feet (4.5 metres) in shoulder height, it was one of the largest elephant species to have ever lived. It is believed that E. recki ranged throughout Africa between 3.5 and 1 million years ago. " but it went extinct far too long ago for these purposes. > > Possible we could include (wiki) "T_he North African Elephant (Loxodonta africana pharaoensis) was a possible subspecies of the African Bush Elephant (Loxodonta africana), or possibly a separate elephant species, that existed in North Africa until becoming extinct in Ancient Roman times."_ > > The African Mammoth, _Mammuthus africanavus_ was a Pliocene species.[Elephantidae - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elephant_species) Ok, so two that went extinct before humans were a factor one way or another, and one that lived in a very marginal habitat until comparatively recently. ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510/60 "2010-11-07T03:33:32Z")
Has Colinvaux’s “Why Big Fierce Animals are Rare” been discredited? I’m not looking for an argument, the book came out in the '70s, but his explanations seem as good as any. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-large-land-mammals-survive-in-africa/559510.md?page=4)