I think it is pretty safe to say that the sartorial rules for a professional business office and a high school gym class are slightly different. But if you want to show the world your hairy ankles, with your sock laying in a puddle around the tops of your shoes while you’re trying to make a professional and competent impression be my guest. “Self-important and clueless” guys that look well groome and professional are going to win out over unprofessional dorks every time.
That may be true (for now), but irrelevant to the point.
Every time? You are making a claim that you can’t back up. I’m sure that in many respects what you consider acceptable business attire today was not too long ago looked upon as unprofessional. As I said, fashion changes and it changes fast. It won’t be too long before some of those kids with their faces full of metal piercings and their bodies covered with tattoos will start becoming other people’s bosses. Who is to say that anyone will be looking at anyone’s ankles, hairy or otherwise?
No. Acceptable business attire, IMHO, has been and remains to be a suit, pressed, long-sleeve shirt, neck tie, and shined shoes. You can wear a sport coat and slacks in place of the suit if you’d like. In my line of work that’s always been the accepted uniform, and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. The first time someone with an eyebrow piercing and a sleeve tattoo that isn’t covered by a shirt gets a job in the governor’s office or any other place that I’ve worked, I’ll be sure and let you know.
Oops, I see an “IMHO” there. Oh, there’s another qualifier: “In my line of work.” I see some more qualification implied there: In your particular office and (perhaps) in the offices of the other organizations you happen to come into contact with. (And, of course, the most important implied qualification: at this moment.) It wasn’t that hard to back off from sweeping generalization after all, now was it?
Now count how many of the people in your office are wearing sock garters.
Oh, and I take it you work in a public official’s office? Well your claim about “always” is demonstrably untrue. In the 1940s your modern suit would be laughed at – the pants are slung too low and the tie is too long and you’re missing a vest. At the turn of the century, you’d be laughed at for wearing cuffs and collar that are attached to your shirt, and your suit coat is way too short. Go back a little further and your plain straight tie is out of fashion and you should be wearing a frock coat.
I’ve given it serious thought and I think I’ll stick with my generalization, which has been about professional office attire the entire time. Polished, well-dressed people are going to make the better impression and are going to be more well regarded. Slovenly dress is never going to be acceptable in a professional setting. Unless, of course, you’re a professional, junior high school basketball player from the early 1980s about which you have much more personal knowledge.
There you go, claiming your generalization on the one hand and backing off from it on the other. Either the dress standard will always and for ever and ever maintain a particular requirement for socks or, okay, in general, “polished, well-dressed people” will fit the bill. Of course, today’s “polished, well-dressed” person is going to be different from yesterday’s and tomorrow’s.
Not only baseball games, but at amusement parks, church, and going shopping. When men quit wearing hats, coats, and ties to go anywhere, women stopped wearing skirts when they went out.
They are not coming back.
Men will not wear hats and coats and ties to baseball parks or amusement parks anymore, and women will not wear skirts anymore.
Nonsuch:
OTOH, neckties didn’t disappear nearly to the extent that hats did. And yet while hats keep the head warm and shield the sun, the only purpose of a necktie is to spare your executioner the trouble of finding a rope.
I was referring to them as common street wear – and I’d date that to the '80s.
I’m a woman who wears skirts all the time.
And I’m a guy who wears a hat once in awhile.
I sort of remember people wearing them around back in the 70s, but checking my 1978 high school yearbook, I can only find two guys wearing them in the crowd scenes–and both of these were “Caterpillar” hats (My high school, in Herndon VA, was sort of on the border between DC suburbs and farm country back then).
The only TV character in the 70s I remember wearing a baseball cap was Oscar Madisaon. And he kind of pioneered the “Wear it backwards like a catcher” look.
It wasn’t unknown before the 80s, but it sure was less common than I remember. Come to think of it, I never owned one for non-athletic purposes until around 1990…
No, men’s hats will never, ever come back.
Five thousand years from now, men living in Antarctica will say, “Boy, I sure wish I had something to cover my head with, what with it being so cold outside, but I don’t want to look like a man from the 1940s or 50s.” :rolleyes:
Baseball caps are nothing new. I know that guys were wearing them even off the field when I was growing up in the 1950’s. Maybe it was a rural thing since a lot of farmers wore them while they were plowing. They were not adjustable back then. Then the strap in back was elasticized and eventually it was adjustable.
We called jeans “dungarees” when I first started wearing them in the early to mid 1950’s. My dad continued to associate them with poverty all of his life and couldn’t understand why anyone would choose to wear them.
Exapno Mapcase: I agree with you about the Snopes article. Those of us who were around at the time pretty much watched those fedoras disappear about the same time Kennedy was sworn in. My last photo of my dad in a fedora was in 1960.
Does anyone remember when men’s flat-brimmed, flat-topped woven straw hats came into fashion a second time probably in early 1960’s? They looked like straw hats from the 1920’s. They were called straw katys or caties or something like that.
One of my doctors wears a homberg or a bowler. I get them confused. He really brings it off too.
acsenray: Either the dress standard will always and for ever and ever maintain a particular requirement for socks or, okay, in general, “polished, well-dressed people” will fit the bill.
Dude, I think you’re overreacting here. The substance of plnnr’s original claim, as far as I can make out, is that slumpy dress socks look bad with a business suit and dress shoes. Not that slumpy socks of any kind are never cool. Not that business clothing as we now know it is never going to change. Just that the particular clothing style of dress-shoes-and-business-suit requires you to keep your socks pulled up if you don’t want to look like an unprofessional dork.
That doesn’t sound unreasonable to me. It’s on a par with women’s nylon stockings needing to look smooth and not wrinkled. I think you jumped to the conclusion that plnnr was saying that slumpy socks are unacceptable with any style of men’s clothing. You rightly noted that that’s not true, and that slumpy socks in other contexts come in and out of fashion, but in fact I don’t think he was claiming what you thought he was.
Slumpy dress socks with a business suit and dress shoes aren’t a potential fashion option like trouser cuffs vs. no cuffs or wingtips vs. cap-toes. They’re more like dirty fingernails or food on your necktie: they’ll never be accepted as mainstream business-wear because they just look untidy and ill-groomed.
Damn it, Kimstu , I was hoping that ascenray would show up for a job interview at a firm with his socks down around his ankles, an eyebrow piercing, and a sleeve tattoo showing under his wife beater. Now you’ve ruined it for all the people that were going to have the opportunity to laugh they’re asses off at him and talk about him at lunch.
That still doesn’t prove causation. The point of the Snopes article is that the trend at the time was no hats and Kennedy was part of that trend. There’s no proof that Kennedy caused people to stop wearing hats.
They’re generally known as “boaters.”
The crown of bowler/derby/coke hat is bowl shaped. The crown of a homburg is creased from front to back.
I’m a woman who wears long skirts and pins her hair up all the time, and I’m not a member of any religious group either.
plnnr: I was hoping that ascenray would show up for a job interview at a firm with his socks down around his ankles, an eyebrow piercing, and a sleeve tattoo showing under his wife beater.
Now now, don’t be a sore winner. And I think you’ve got some apples and oranges mixed up here: while fallen-down dress socks will IMO never look acceptable with a business suit, it’s very possible that eyebrow piercings and sleeve tattoos, like other types of jewelry and decoration, will at some point become chic for business-suit wearers.
That sort of thing falls in the “unusual look” rather than “untidy grooming” category. And unusual looks often get assimilated into mainstream business-wear fashion. There was a day when, e.g., beards, ponytails, earrings, and bright red neckties were considered too “unusual” to be worn with a standard business suit, but I don’t think any of them would raise many eyebrows now. Facial piercings and tattoos are probably eventually going to get assimilated in the same way.
(What’s a “wife beater”?)