# Why did most of Europe just lay down for Germany at the start of WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233 "2010-11-29T01:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/161 "2010-12-01T13:50:28Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Snipers have been involved in every war since rifles were invented. None ever won a war. Good point. Lord Nelson was shot and killed at Trafalgar, and still won the battle. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/162 "2010-12-01T13:59:47Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > The Finns didn’t fight “with” the Germans, we accepted weapons and had a kind of we wont invade you while you fight the Soviets, we were fighting a common enemy. And then the English declared war on us! WTF they sided with the Soviets, I will never understand this.:smack: As Churchill once said, “If Hitler invaded hel, I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons”. ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/163 "2010-12-01T14:15:07Z")
lol at Europe ‘laying down’ for Germany! I would have liked to have seen how the US would have faired with if the Panzer Gruppen came rollin’ through Time Square! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/164 "2010-12-01T15:41:13Z")
> [@Sablicious](#): > > I would have liked to have seen how the US would have faired with if the Panzer Gruppen came rollin’ through Time Square! "Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn’t advise you to try to invade. " -Richard Blaine. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/165 "2010-12-01T16:25:01Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > Who needs rifles anyway. Just use a sharp stick and your magic “never surrender” force field. That and yelling “Wolverines!” a lot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/166 "2010-12-01T19:54:36Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Where do you think guerrilla movements begin? Did the French Resistance exist before the Germans occupied France? Where do you think they ended up? Dead. The French resistance, like most resistance movements, did two things; fight the Germans, and provide the Allies with intelligence. The latter part was successful; the former was suicide. At any point that resistance fighters tried engaging the Nazis in combat, they were slaughtered. When the Allies showed up the resistance fighters started really coming out of the woodwork to (a) get some ass-kicking in against a defeated enemy, and (b) look good to take some credit. Until then, the effective part of the resistance was the part that kept its head down and fed the Allies with information. The resistance made no real dent in German fighting capabilities. The only time they were of any military significance was when fighting in conventional forms alongside professional Allied troops. If every single Jew in Europe had had a rifle and had chosen to resist when the SS showed up, the losses to Germany would have been a rounding error in terms of their casualty totals. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/167 "2010-12-01T20:32:21Z")
And the notion that the Russians “never surrendered” is simply laughable. Russians surrendered BY THE MILLIONS. Of course there was an official “No Surrender” policy from Stalin, but that didn’t matter much until after the war, when all the Russian soldiers liberated from POW camps were sent to the Gulags on charges of treason. But the Russians surrendered and surrendered and surrendered. It’s just that after a thousand kilometers of advancing, destroying the Red Army, and accepting surrenders, the German Wehrmacht was overexposed. And finally the remaining portions of the Red Army that hadn’t been killed or captured was able to mount a counterattack, and grind the Germans down, and reverse the process. France didn’t have a thousand kilometers to retreat into. Neither did Norway, or Denmark, or Belgium, or Luxembourg, or Poland. Russia was able to absorb fantastic losses of men and territory, not because they “didn’t surrender” (because they did), but because they had unparalleled men and territory to lose. The Germans kicked Russian ass all day every day for a solid year, and the only reason the Russians weren’t conquered is they had so much ass to kick there was still quite a bit of ass left. The Germans ran out of boots before the Russians ran out of ass. It’s odious and offensive to declare that the difference between countries that were occupied and countries that weren’t occupied was that the occupied countries were full of cowards, while the unoccupied countries were full of heroes. It’s beyond offensive. It’s literally retarded. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/168 "2010-12-01T22:15:09Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The Germans kicked Russian ass all day every day for a solid year, and the only reason the Russians weren’t conquered is they had so much ass to kick there was still quite a bit of ass left. The Germans ran out of boots before the Russians ran out of ass. You need to teach history. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/169 "2010-12-01T22:24:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The resistance made no real dent in German fighting capabilities. Quite true. However, one may debate the effect the resistance movements had on tying up German forces for handling resistance actions and keeping the occupied territories, thus preventing those forces from fighting at the front. I don’t know the real effect of this, but at that time Allied staff considered just this an important aspect of resistance actions ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/170 "2010-12-01T22:32:02Z")
I’ll give this one more shot. **Susanann**. I am a proud American. I love my country, and it is only being classified physically unfit that kept me from putting on the uniform and serving. If the US were invaded, and my current town overrun, I would consider fighting, as you suggest. I have a rifle, I know the basics of Guerilla warfare (even if you so clearly don’t). However, if I knew that getting captured would lead to not only my death, but the death of my wife, 2 boys, and several hundred of the townsfolk that I live amongst, I would probably “surrender”, and wait for the enemy to be driven off. I am a proud American, but I am a parent first. As, I suspect, most folks are. The Nazi’s had insurgents in every country they held. The civilians did not “lie down and take it”. But not everyone is a warrior, and not everyone is capable. To imply that the Poles deserved what happend to them (or the Czechs, or anyone else) is monstrous. You should feel shame for thinking that. When one man kills an occupying soldier, and random folks are pulled from their houses and shot by the hundreds, it rapidly becomes clear that being an insurgent does more harm to your homeland than the occupiers. The Nazi’s did not play by the rules we use today. There would be no investigation, no “wanted posters”. They would just announce that so many of the citizenry would be executed for every German soldier killed. And that was exactly what they did. If the Poles, or the French, or anyone else had fought, every man woman and child, against the Nazi’s, that people would have been exterminated. Without question, and without a qualm. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/171 "2010-12-01T22:36:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As Churchill once said, “If Hitler invaded hel, I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons”. Yeah I understand that he had his eye on the big prize but I still get pissed that people refer to Finland as siding with the Nazis, when it was either that or get taken over by the Soviets. Churchill could have had a beach head into Russia but he chose to let them be, it only took another 40 years for Soviet experiment to fail and Finland is still here. So in the end, we won. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/172 "2010-12-01T23:03:12Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > You need to teach history. +1. Marvellously succinct summation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/173 "2010-12-01T23:18:30Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Yeah I understand that he had his eye on the big prize but I still get pissed that people refer to Finland as siding with the Nazis, when it was either that or get taken over by the Soviets. Churchill could have had a beach head into Russia but he chose to let them be, it only took another 40 years for Soviet experiment to fail and Finland is still here. So in the end, we won. If you don’t want people saying you sided with the Nazis, don’t side with the Nazis. I get that your government didn’t really have much of a choice; that it was either side with the Nazis or be a Russian puppet, but you still sided with the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/174 "2010-12-01T23:54:59Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The first no retreat orders from Hitler in the face of the Soviet winter counter-offensive of '41/42 on the eastern front actually did make sense. Sure, I’m not going to argue against that. I was referring to Hitler countermanding his generals such as Stalingrad, the dismissal of von Manstein, etc, which admittedly only became an issue rather late in the war when the prospects of victory were already slim and Hitler became more paranoid and delusional (never surrender, anyone?). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/175 "2010-12-01T23:55:22Z")
Of course, the real country with a “No Surrender” ethic was Japan. And how’d that work out for them? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/176 "2010-12-01T23:55:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If you don’t want people saying you sided with the Nazis, don’t side with the Nazis. I get that your government didn’t really have much of a choice; that it was either side with the Nazis or be a Russian puppet, but you still sided with the Nazis. It is alleged that near the end of the war, Hitler asked the Finns, “Why don’t you send me your Jews?” and the Finns sarcastically responded, “Why don’t you come get them?” 🙂 True or false? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/177 "2010-12-02T00:23:28Z")
Look, the real reason Hitler never invaded Switzerland was due to their fabulous Army Knives. If that’s what one of their knives does, what the heck do you think their tanks and planes are like? Freakin missiles and bombs and that stupid magnifying glass and that other tool no one can figure out what it does all poping out of the turrets and whatnot! > [@Tristan](#): > > When one man kills an occupying soldier, and random folks are pulled from their houses and shot by the hundreds, it rapidly becomes clear that being an insurgent does more harm to your homeland than the occupiers. The Nazi’s did not play by the rules we use today. There would be no investigation, no “wanted posters”. They would just announce that so many of the citizenry would be executed for every German soldier killed. And that was exactly what they did. I would think that would have the opposite effect. If you start indescriminantly killing civilians, you put them in a position that forces them to fight back out of anger and desperation. Hitler (and Stalin) were very good at creating an atmosphere of paranoia. Even if you wanted to resist, who would you trust to organize with that wouldn’t turn you in to the Gastapo? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/178 "2010-12-02T01:18:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It is alleged that near the end of the war, Hitler asked the Finns, “Why don’t you send me your Jews?” and the Finns sarcastically responded, “Why don’t you come get them?” 🙂 True or false? Sisu defined. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/179 "2010-12-02T01:31:34Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Sisu defined. I beg your pardon? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233/180 "2010-12-02T02:02:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It is alleged that near the end of the war, Hitler asked the Finns, “Why don’t you send me your Jews?” and the Finns sarcastically responded, “Why don’t you come get them?” 🙂 True or false? I dpn’t know how much sarcasm was involved, but the Germans did make multiple requests of the Finns to hand over its Jewish population, and with the exception of 8 Jewish refugees they turned over, and some Soviet Jewish prisoners of war, the Finns consistantly refused. Finnish Jews had been granted full citizenship when the country got its independence in 1918, and there wasn’t really any tradition of anti-Semitism in Finland. The most ironic story probably is that of Major Leo Scurnik, a field surgeon in the Finnish army. When he was awarded an Iron Cross because of all the German soldiers he saved, refused to take it, saying “I’ll wipe your asses with that medal.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-most-of-europe-just-lay-down-for-germany-at-the-start-of-wwii/562233.md?page=10)