These people chose Iraq, as opposed to any number of countries in the area that are also ruled by awful people, for a reason. They decided it was Saddam who they needed to take out first - not Assad or someone else - years ago. Unless you think they wrote the name of Middle Eastern countries in a hat and just happened to choose Iraq, they had a reason, and Saddam’s actions over the years provided that reason.
This point has been made, but just to make it a little more explicit: What is the OP proposing Saddam could have done in order to prevent the invasion? As I understand it, the primary criticism that the weapons inspectors had regarding Iraq’s compliance with their mission was the lack of good documentary evidence showing that Iraq had indeed destroyed its WMDs. Since neither the WMDs nor the good documentary evidence of their destruction was ever found after we took over Iraq, I think it is safe to conclude that it was possible, if not likely, that neither existed. As I like to say, this may be the first war started over poor record-keeping.
So, if that was indeed the case, what was Saddam supposed to do exactly to prevent the invasion? It seems that really the only thing he could have done is left the country, along with his family, and let the U.S. take it over without a fight (or at least an official fight)…But I think he was too proud to do that.
Sure it did. The stated aim of the war and the reason the Mide Eastern colilition joined up was to drive Iraq out of Kuwait, and it was accomplished.
Does the rest of your post imply that bin Laden was connected with Iraq?
They likely chose it because they could just drive right over the border and conquer Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and so on, once they’d pacified it and built their “enduring bases”; it’s right in the middle. Location, location, location.
Remember how right after the conquest there was all that talk about Saddam sending his WMDs into Syria ? If Iraq had fallen in line like the fools expected, I expect they’d have been next. Then Iran.
I agree. I think they also wanted Iraq to have a financial advantage to use over other countries, including Europe.
I don’t think Saddam played chicken. He let the weapons inspectors back in. The neocons wanted to invade and nothing could have prevented it. Remember Richard Clark saying he was told to find a way to blame Iraq right after 9/11? I don’t believe they thought Saddam was a threat. It was all just rhetoric to sell the war.
It makes me question whether they wanted some terrorist incident to help sell their plan. Clark also says they did very little to take real steps against a terrorism before 9/11 but right after that it became the War on Terror.
Except that Saddam had no reason to want Osama bin Laden to gain power. Iraq under Saddam had the kind of secular government that bin Laden was dedicated to destroying. They had some minimal common ground in having some of the same enemies but Saddam had no reason to sacrifice his own postion to advance bin Laden’s.
As for a decisive WWII style victory - well, we’re occupying Iraq now. How do you feel it’s worked out so far?
Hell, I’ll go you one better! I think if Saddam had known about 9/11 in the planning stage, he would have ratted out ObL in a New York minute. If he could have gotten something for it, he would, but nonetheless, he would have to know that if such a thing were to happen, suspicion would fall on him immediately. Handing up ObL would have tickled him pink, if he could be sure of nobody finding out.
Allow me to offer a somewhat divergent hypothesis.
First, I think the notion that Saddam needed to give the impression of WMD possession to keep the rest of the region in line is highly overrated. Sure, a few chemical shells might kill a somewhat disproportinal number of people, but chemical weapons don’t mean squat if you don’t have the force to (on offense) take and hold your strategic targets or (on defense) slaughter the rest of the invaders. Saddam never had the kind of juice after GWI.
Let’s don’t get started on biological or nuclear weapons. Absolutely nobody with functional brain stems actually thought Saddam had nukes - even for the most hysterical of the Kool-Aid mainliners, it was always “He might get them next week!” As for biological weapons, you don’t stop an overwhelming invasion (n.b. to the V.P.'s office: the only kind you ever want to be involved in) by trying to get the other side sick, since (a) they’ll continue slaughtering your sorry ass for a significant period of time after you launch the smallpox, and (b) what the hell’s the point since your own guys will be dead of the same plague approximately 12.5 hours after the other side shuffles off their mortal springboxes?
So–you’re a brutal dictator who doesn’t have squat for WMD’s, and isn’t scaring anyone who has three neurons to rub together, but a good chunk of the rest of the world wants you to cough up the nucleo-chemical anthrax drones they think you’ve got packed away in aluminum tubes, or else prove that they’re delusional. Also, fuck those guys, this is your country, top to bottom, and you’ll be goddamned if you’re handing it over to some prep school cheerleader who lucked into the family business. What do you do?
You say fuck you, repeatedly and often, even when you let the inspectors in. And you count on the fact that even though you’re a brutal dictator, surely those morons with W '04 bumper stickers aren’t really that idiotic.
Let me check the Magic 8-Ball:
“Complex psychological and cultural reason that are not fully understood.”
Der Trihs :
Your post #18. Of course you can’t find a cite because I doubt very much any such thing was said to interviewers, Italian or otherwise.
I can’t help but feel that this is yet another of your anti-American blurbs.
If I’m wrong I’m wrong, prove me wrong…go on, do it
:rolleyes: Or, because it was years ago, and I lack a perfect memory. Could you find a cite for every news story you read or heard once or twice four years ago ? And since it’s been demonstrated quite well that Bush was determined to attack, I fail to see the point of your criticism.
How about the fact that what I said doesn’t say a thing about America ? Is every criticism of Bush a criticism of America ?
But isn’t that pretty much what happened ? Saddam disappeared into a hole, and the army did a fade ?
Besides, if Saddam had agreed to move to Monte Carlo, the US would have claimed that Iraq was failing to cooperate with the ‘Saddam Inspections’ - demanding irrefutable documentary evidence that Saddam was no longer in Iraq - 'No ! A credit card bill from the Grand Palace Casino doesn’t count ! We demand notarized photographs of every location in Iraq where Saddam isn’t !
As a number of posters have already pointed out, Saddam did basically co-operate, albeit with a bad attitude. The US intervention was driven by other considerations.
Saddam understood the Middle Eastern mind set, but he did not understand the USA
He was pretty unsophisticated
After 9/11 it would have been easy to rope him into the fold, a quiet suggestion that Ba’athist government is better than religious bloodshed would have allowed him to boost his own regime and ‘earn’ kudos from abroad.
Also, he knew that the place was ungovernable without him, unfortunately he did not know that influential sectors of the USA were looking at the place through benign, rational, rose tinted ‘Sam Stone’ glasses (and that is not an insult, his explanations of benign, optimistic Neocon thought are very useful).
Saddam misjudged the USA, and the USA misjudged the powder barrel that Saddam was keeping under control.
It is a pity as Saddam could have been a useful ally.
Or because it never happened, and you made it up.
The point of the criticism is that you are lying.
If you are going to post lies and false memories, don’t be surprised if you are not taken seriously.
Regards,
Shodan
You don’t appear to lack a perfect memory when it comes to denigrating the USA.
Look Der Trihs every reader of this board knows that you hate America and all things American, you make yourself look even more foolish and puerile when you post lies. Grow up for Gods sake
Plus what Shodan said
THE IRAQI DOCUMENTS: A GLIMPSE INTO THE
REGIME OF SADDAM HUSSEIN
HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION
APRIL 6, 2006
Serial No. 109–184
Brigadier General Anthony A. Cucolo III, Usa, Director, Joint Center For Operational Analysis, United States Joint Forces Command
Lieutenant Colonel Kevin M. Woods, Usa (Ret.), Project Leader And Principal Author Of Iraqi Perspective Project, United States Joint Forces Command
[INDENT]**The Iraqi Perspective Project is a research effort conducted by United States Joint Forces Command**, specifically the Joint Center for Operational Analysis, and it focuses on Operation Iraqi Freedom in the time period from March to May 2003.
Using information gathered through dozens of interviews with senior Iraqi military and political leaders during the fall and winter of 2003–2004, and making use of thousands of official Iraqi documents, **we have a comprehensive historical analysis of the forces and motivations that drive our opponents’ decision.**
Now, to accomplish this, the project leader, Kevin Woods, led a small team of professionals in a systematic 2-year study of the former Iraqi regime and military. This book is the first major product of that effort.
Essentially, Kevin and his team crafted a substantive examination of Saddam Hussein’s leadership and its effect on the Iraqi military decision making process. Moreover, we believe it goes a long way toward revealing the inner workings of a closed regime from an insiders’ point of view.
The overall objective of the project was to learn the right lessons from Operation Iraqi Freedom, and while the practice of self-critique and gathering lessons learned are distinguishing feature of the U.S. Military, **in almost every past instance our understanding of events remained incomplete because any assessment was limited to a ‘‘blue’’ or a friendly view of what happened.**
While we often had a relatively complete picture of what our adversary did, we remained in the dark as to what motivated his actions.
In this case, by shedding light on the actual ‘‘red team’s view,’’ this study hopes to contribute to a more fully developed history of the war.
It should be noted that this is the first such effort by the United States Government since World War II, when the United States conducted a comprehensive review of recovered German and Japanese documents, as well as interviews with key military and civilian leadership of our former enemies.
Though this is an important first step, we acknowledge that our understanding of Operation Iraqi Freedom remains incomplete.
The second assumption that Saddam made had to do with the nature of his opponents. Through the distortions of his ideological perceptions, **Saddam simply could not take the Americans seriously**. After all, had they not run away from Vietnam after suffering what to him was a ‘‘mere’’ 58,000 dead? Iraq had suffered 51,000 dead in just one battle on the Fao Peninsula against the Iranians. In the 1991 Gulf War, the Americans had appeared on the brink of destroying much of Iraq’s military, including the Republican Guard, but then inexplicably stopped—for fear of casualties, in Saddam’s view. Somalia, Bosnia, and Kosovo all added to **Saddam’s belief that the Americans could not possibly launch a ground invasion that would seriously threaten his regime.** At best they might be willing to launch an air campaign similar to OPERATION DESERT FOX in 1998 with a few small ground attacks around Iraq’s periphery. But from Saddam’s point of view, the idea that the Americans would attack all the way to Baghdad appeared ludicrous.
A few senior military officers believed that the coalition might launch a ground campaign, especially given the enormous buildup that was taking place in Kuwait. But even they believed that as in OPERATION DESERT STORM, the Americans would wage a sustained air campaign before they launched their ground forces on an invasion of Iraq. Therefore, **the entire Iraqi leadership—military and civilian— was surprised by Coalition ground forces beginning their offensive into Iraq at the same time the air campaign was starting. Adding to their incomprehension were the speed and power of the American offensive, which were simply beyond their understanding of military operations and logistical capabilities**.[/INDENT]
nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition either
And your evidence that I’m lying ( not even mistaken, but lying ) is ? And my reason for lying is ? That’s a serious accusation; where’s your evidence ? I am not lying; I find it extremely difficult to lie, even when I should. Also, this is veering into personal insult territory, which is against the rules. Which is why I won’t discuss why I think you make such accusations.
For that matter, what of it? The avalanche of falsehoods and disinformation that tumbled down on us from Mt. Bush…you pull out a snowball, toss it aside, and think you’ve shown something of significance?
IIRC, the article came out slightly after the invasion. Of course, it’s been four years, and there’s no obvious keywords for winnowing out the piece, if it still exists online.
To get to the other side? Or would that be ‘Why did the Saddam want to cross the road?’ I can never keep them straight…
As others have said, I think he did so because he calculated that he COULD get away with it, without war. And that the prestige he would reap was worth what he obviously felt was minimal risk. He’d been playing chicken successfully with the US for nearly a decade after all…why not just keep going?
I don’t believe that Saddam (or for that matter, many other people in out there in the wider world) really understand America or American’s…or how they think or operate. Normally, it would have been next to impossible to get the American people to back such an invasion of another country…unless there was clear cause (i.e. unless they had directly attacked us in a very visible way). Oh, by and large the public doesn’t care of we toss a few bombs or some cruise missiles at someone or other…they hardly notice. But an invasion? Boots on the ground? Soldiers killed? Billions spent? Not a chance thats going to happen…except that THIS time there was a window of opportunity with the shock, rage and grief the public felt after 9/11 that allowed Bush et al to exploit public sentiment. I don’t believe that Saddam had fully calculated what the impact of 9/11 on the American people’s attitudes really meant…for that matter, I doubt Saddam fully understood (and again, I doubt he was alone) how the American people DO impact our foreign policy. I doubt it ever crossed his mind that you need to have the tacit approval of the people (and therefore their representatives in Congress) to actually DO something like the Iraqi invasion.
I doubt it. My guess is he knew that the administration would happily go to war with him…but that this ‘war’ would take the form of some air strikes, maybe some cruise missiles, etc…and he’d been putting up with this kind of thing on and off for over a decade in his periodic clashes with the US in the no-fly zone. His real miscalculation, as I said above (IMHO anyway FWIW) was in underestimating the sentiment and mood of the American people…and realizing that with this attitude change, there was a window of opportunity for a rather more radical change in our policy.
Because he may actually have been more stupid (and stuborn) than Bush was. I think he believed, all the way up until the tanks were rolling, that the US was just rattling his cage…that we wouldn’t REALLY invade. After all, he saw all the resistance the Euro’s (and China, etc) were giving us about it…and he probably thought that this would put the brakes on us doing anything radical. Normally his calculation would have been dead on too…our public opinion is normally distressingly (to me at least ) subject to European approval. By and large my fellow American’s WANT to have the approval of our stalwart cousins across the big pond…and are distressed when we don’t have it. THIS time however, and for this small window of time, the American people didn’t give a rats ass for outside approval…and Saddam and his merry men missed this fact, to their sorrow.
I have to say (though it pains me to do so), that THIS time our Euro cousins were right and we were wrong…and we would have been better off listening to their ranting on this subject and just tossing those cruise missiles at Iraq instead of invading.
Oh well…blind squirels and acorns and all that.
-XT