# Why did Scotland and Northern Ireland vote to remain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213 "2016-06-24T08:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ZomZom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zomzom/32/5620_2.png) [@ZomZom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZomZom)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/1 "2016-06-24T08:57:55Z")
Why the contrast with England and Wales? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/2 "2016-06-24T11:25:10Z")
Because a substantial part of the scottish population supports independence from England and they realise they have to be in the EU to make that work. Scotland is too small to go it alone. Similarly with NI, they share a land border with an EU state, Ireland, and a substantial minority of NI wants reunification with Ireland. If as a result of UK leaving there is forced to be border controls between NI and the rest of Ireland that would also be a huge drain on the NI economy. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/3 "2016-06-24T13:42:59Z")
Uneducated guess that seems to make sense: The main impetus to vote “Leave” was “we want to control our own destiny and not be dominated by confederations controlled by others”. For people in England, that’s a good argument, because within GB they are the dominant party. For the other groups, that’s not the case. So it’s a matter of “controlled by England in our confederation with GB” versus “us and England controlled by European powers in our confederation with the EU”, which is a more ambiguous question. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/4 "2016-06-24T15:17:27Z")
Moved to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/5 "2016-06-24T20:02:52Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Similarly with NI, they share a land border with an EU state, Ireland, and a substantial minority of NI wants reunification with Ireland. If as a result of UK leaving there is forced to be border controls between NI and the rest of Ireland that would also be a huge drain on the NI economy. How would it be any bigger drain than Norway and Sweden? Or Switzerland and the states surrounding it? ---
**Author:** ![ZomZom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zomzom/32/5620_2.png) [@ZomZom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZomZom)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/6 "2016-06-24T21:41:36Z")
I was curious as to why the vote was so different in Scotland and NI compared to England and Wales. Wasn’t looking for a great debate. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/7 "2016-06-24T21:56:31Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > How would it be any bigger drain than Norway and Sweden? Or Switzerland and the states surrounding it? How? Perhaps you can read about the [zone Schengen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area) and note who are the members, and also consider the free trade of the goods and the services and the free movement of the labor of the same [EFTA members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association) who the members of the zone… ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/8 "2016-06-24T21:58:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Uneducated guess that seems to make sense: > > The main impetus to vote “Leave” was “we want to control our own destiny and not be dominated by confederations controlled by others”. For people in England, that’s a good argument, because within GB they are the dominant party. For the other groups, that’s not the case. So it’s a matter of “controlled by England in our confederation with GB” versus “us and England controlled by European powers in our confederation with the EU”, which is a more ambiguous question. Not a bad guess but then why did Wales vote to leave? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/9 "2016-06-25T00:03:40Z")
[Here’s a map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File:United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results.svg). Note that the bluest (remain) parts of NI are heavily Protestant/DUP voters. > [@Carryon](#): > > How would it be any bigger drain than Norway and Sweden? Or Switzerland and the states surrounding it? Sweden is part of the European Union (Norway isn’t). They just don’t use the Euro currency. What is unique here is that [Schengen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area)allows free access for Norwegian citizens to visit the EU and vice versa, but the UK and RoI are not members of that treaty. Presumably they will work something out. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/10 "2016-06-25T00:17:34Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > [Here’s a map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File:United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results.svg). Note that the bluest (remain) parts of NI are heavily Protestant/DUP voters. Er, doesn’t blue actually code “Leave the EU” voters on this map? (With green coding “Remain in the EU”) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/11 "2016-06-25T00:50:29Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Not a bad guess but then why did Wales vote to leave? Welsh nationalism is not as big of a deal as Scottish and Irish nationalism, at least in politics. In 2015, Plaid Cymru only won 12% of the Welsh vote in the general election. Sinn Fein and the SDLP won a combined 38% of the vote in Northern Ireland, and the SNP won 50% of the Scottish vote. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/12 "2016-06-25T01:11:27Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Er, doesn’t blue actually code “Leave the EU” voters on this map? (With green coding “Remain in the EU”) Err yes :smack: still, they were one of the parties supporting Brexit, while both Nationalist parties and the more mainstream Unionist party were for remain. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/13 "2016-06-25T03:37:11Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > the UK and RoI are not members of that treaty. Presumably they will work something out. For movement of people yes maybe, but for movement of goods, nope, not possible. Ireland is going to have to put border controls and customs at the NI border. Because otherwise UK companies could just ship goods for sale into NI, then cross into Ireland, then it’s in the EU zone so can be sold without tariffs. The EU is not going to allow that to happen so customs must be implemented at the NI / ROI border. Irish government has already said this: > **[Leaving EU 'will mean return of border posts' in Ireland, warns Lawson](https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/leaving-eu-will-mean-return-of-border-posts-in-ireland-warns-lawson/34615093.html)** > > Checkpoints on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would be needed if the United Kingdom pulls out of the European Union, Lord Lawson has said. That’s going to be devastating for the NI economy. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/14 "2016-06-25T06:40:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > [Here’s a map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016#/media/File:United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results.svg). The Northern Irish vote for Remain is particularly striking in Free Derry (in the northwest corner), which is the darkest shade of olive green and stands out sharply from the surrounding countryside. Then there’s Gibraltar. The very darkest green there too. Looking at that map, you can practically hear and smell the panicky sweat pouring off of Gilbratarians. _El Lobo_ is salivating and licking its chops in anticipation of getting that choice morsel into its _olla_. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/15 "2016-06-25T07:15:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > you can practically hear and smell the panicky sweat pouring off of Gilbratarians. _El Lobo_ is salivating and licking its chops in anticipation of getting that choice morsel into its _olla_. Meh, Even if Spain got control of Gibraltar they’d keep it as an autonomous region with it’s own laws (especially regarding financial services). They already have Ceuta and Mellila as examples of autonomous cities. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/16 "2016-06-25T17:32:58Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Welsh nationalism is not as big of a deal as Scottish and Irish nationalism, at least in politics. > > In 2015, Plaid Cymru only won 12% of the Welsh vote in the general election. Sinn Fein and the SDLP won a combined 38% of the vote in Northern Ireland, and the SNP won 50% of the Scottish vote. Wales has also been functionally controlled by England since 1262. Scotland and Ireland since “only” 1603 (England claimed Ireland a lot earlier - but finally had control in 1603). Ireland was conquered and its people treated horribly. Wales was conquered, but by the Normans, who were conquering England as well. Scotland got (in their opinion) the short end of the stick when James II because James I despite the Scottish King becoming the English one, England came out on top. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/17 "2016-06-25T18:00:50Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Wales has also been functionally controlled by England since 1262. Scotland and Ireland since “only” 1603 And Scotland stayed with its own parliament for another hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/18 "2016-06-25T19:41:59Z")
Forgive a clueless Yank, but aren’t Scotland and NI countries that happen to be part of GB? Why are they treated as American states, not proper countries? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/19 "2016-06-25T20:48:11Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Forgive a clueless Yank, but aren’t Scotland and NI countries that happen to be part of GB? Why are they treated as American states, not proper countries? Strictly speaking, neither are “countries”. There is only one Country, and that is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Both Scotland and N Ireland are[sub national entities.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_division). Now the nomanclature that is used in casual conversation is that the UK consists of 4 Home Nations or countries (England, Wales, Scotland and N Ireland), however as far as international law is conceened, those are just administrative subdivisions. A nation state can call its sub divisions whatever it wants and the division of powers are not some that international law concerns itself with. To make it even more confusing, Wales is sometimes called a principality and N Ireland as a province. But, the nomenclature should not hide the fact that they are not, yet, soverign nation states. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213/20 "2016-06-25T21:01:43Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Err yes :smack: still, they were one of the parties supporting Brexit, while both Nationalist parties and the more mainstream Unionist party were for remain. Huh? I thought the DUP was the leading Unionist Party? Either way, I can’t imagine any Protestants agreeing to Sinn Fein’s recent call for “reunification” with Ireland. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-scotland-and-northern-ireland-vote-to-remain/758213.md?page=2)