# Why did some lowercase "S"s printed in the past look like a defaced "f"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2025, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918 "2025-06-20T23:41:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2025, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/1 "2025-06-20T23:41:48Z")
Anyone familiar with printed works from the past (up to sometime in the 19th century) will surely have noticed that it used to be common, at least in works printed using Roman font, to have two kinds of lowercase “S”, one like the one today, the other elongated, so as to look more like an “f”. For example, here is [the Royal Proclamation of 1763](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Proclamation_of_1763#/media/File:Royal_Proclamation_of_1763.jpg) concerning the transfer of French territories in North America to Britain following the Seven Years’ War. At the bottom, “God save the King” looks like “God **fave** the King”. This elongated “s” actually looks like an “f” that has been defaced - the crossbar either ends before it can cross the vertical column or is absent altogether. Some of these have a curlicue on each end; others don’t have it on the bottom, still others have the top curlicue point backward and join the previous letter, or so I remember them! Clearly 1) we have long discarded this custom and 2) it must have had a purpose. So please, _why?_ Was there some practical purpose behind this, or was it just someone’s YMMV sense of aesthetics at play? To me this looks just like a way to make a text hard to read. I have never had a problem to distinguish a normal “s” in a text, so this seems like a completely superfluous convention. Or is there some redeeming quality for these weird characters? Have they any substantial redeeming quality that I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2025, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/2 "2025-06-20T23:52:52Z")
Here you go: > **[Long s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s)** > > The long s, ⟨ſ⟩, also known as the medial s or initial s, is an archaic form of the lowercase letter ⟨s⟩, found mostly in works from the late 8th to early 19th centuries. It replaced one or both\[a\] of the letters s in a double-s sequence (e.g., "ſinfulneſs" for "sinfulness" and "poſſeſs" or "poſseſs" for "possess", but never "poſſeſſ"). The modern ⟨s⟩ letterform is known as the "short", "terminal", or "round" s. In typography, the long s is known as a type of swash letter, commonly referred to ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/3 "2025-06-21T00:01:07Z")
You can see on this chart exactly when the long “s” went away > **[Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sunk%2Cfunk&year_start=1700&year_end=1900&corpus=en-2009&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false)** > > Google Ngrams: sunk, funk, 1700-1900 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/4 "2025-06-21T00:10:51Z")
Ah, the 1700s…our nation’s funkiest century. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/5 "2025-06-21T00:19:43Z")
That’s very cool. I tried it with some other pairs: sink,fink also switched at 1800, and score, fcore + sting, fting at 1799. (The latter two to avoid falſe poſitiveſ). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/6 "2025-06-21T00:22:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, the 1700s…our nation’s funkiest century. [Jonathan Wellington Muddlemore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Funky_Phantom)? ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/7 "2025-06-21T00:47:37Z")
As Flanders and Swan noted, ′Greenfleevef’ is a pretty unlikely title for a fong ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/8 "2025-06-21T02:36:33Z")
Here is [Benny Hill](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNBtpfoh8RM&ab_channel=Sight%26Sounds)’s [Fad-Eyed Fal](https://benny-hill.fandom.com/wiki/Fad-Eyed_Fal) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/9 "2025-06-21T03:28:53Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > poſitiveſ). Wrong! It’s the medial s, so only used in the middle (or initial spot) of words – never as the last letter. Also never used twice together – use medial s and a round s (and generally in that order). It’s so archaic I don’t think it is even in Unicode. Though there are rather similar symbols in German and other languages. Plus it’s used in math as the integral symbol (from Latin _summa_). ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/10 "2025-06-21T06:36:45Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Though there are rather similar symbols in German and other languages The German “Sharp S” / “Eszett” (sz) / “ss” character was formed from a “long s” combined with a “z” ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/11 "2025-06-21T08:09:32Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > It’s so archaic I don’t think it is even in Unicode. It is - U+017F. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/12 "2025-06-21T09:33:37Z")
Marke but this flea, and marke in this, How little that which thou deny’ſt me is; It ſuck’d me firſt, and now ſucks thee, And in this flea, our two bloods mingled bee ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/13 "2025-06-21T10:54:13Z")
[Life, liberty, and the purfuit of happineff](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ihq21s2XUA)! ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/14 "2025-06-21T12:18:37Z")
As a nerd, I feel compelled to point out that the “long s” survives in one particular orthgographic niche: calculus, where it’s used as the integral sign. (“\int” stands for “sum”, don’t you know.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/15 "2025-06-21T13:49:38Z")
As noted in my cite, there are 5 long s variations in Unicode. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/16 "2025-06-21T13:59:59Z")
I think more correctly, there was a final form of the S, and at some point the final form began to be used for initial and medial Ss as well. Maybe because it looked like the capital, I don’t know, but final forms of letters exist with other alphabets-- Hebrew has 5, but if it hadn’t spent so much time as a technically dead language, maybe it would have lost the final forms by now. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/17 "2025-06-21T14:24:51Z")
Was Hebrew that dead when people began writing it using an Aramaic-style alphabet (and in a variation that had distinct non-final letters) though? Typography versus handwriting may have had something to do with long s’s falling out of fashion. Not that handwriting is supposed to correspond precisely to any given typeface. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/18 "2025-06-21T19:04:42Z")
Arabic letters can have 4 forms, depending whether first, middle, last or stand-alone. I assume the difference evolved for most alphabets as a convenience with handwriting, just as we have cursive script as well as hand-printed writing. Cursive is faster. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/19 "2025-06-21T19:18:33Z")
Greek has something similar. Sigma is σ when all but the last letter and is ς when a terminal letter. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2025, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918/20 "2025-06-21T19:20:02Z")
I’m pretty sure final letters exist because people didn’t used to leave gaps between words, or use much punctuation (parchment was expensive). The final forms served mostly the same purpose. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-some-lowercase-s-s-printed-in-the-past-look-like-a-defaced-f/1019918.md?page=2)