# Why did steam-powered cars lose out to gasoline-powered ones? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2006, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305 "2006-11-30T08:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/41 "2006-12-03T00:57:51Z")
That Wikipedia article pointed me to [this one](http://ghlin2.greenhills.net/~apatter/doble.html), which mentions a Doble E19 which ran “10 to 14 miles per gallon on fuel oil”. I pondered that statistic for a bit, having no idea what mileage other cars of that vintage were getting. Then I realized that this thread had wandered quite afield from the OP. The OP asked why steam-powered cars _of any fuel_ lost out to gasoline-powered cars. That morphed into a question asking what fuel was used to boil the water into steam. Somehow, I focused too much on the inefficiency of wood burners, and I apologize for that. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/42 "2006-12-03T03:57:23Z")
Keeve the link to the Doble car was provided right back at the beginning, and then referred to several times after that. Anyhow, apologies accepted. Note that the Wiki Doble link says that it was as economical as cars of its day. So while 10 to 14 mpg sounds freakin’ awful, you have to compare like with like. I don’t know whether a steam car could, with 70 odd years of intense development, have ended up being as economical as a modern car, but it’s an interesting question to ponder. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/43 "2006-12-03T10:01:45Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Keeve the link to the Doble car was provided right back at the beginning, and then referred to several times after that. Anyhow, apologies accepted. Note that the Wiki Doble link says that it was as economical as cars of its day. So while 10 to 14 mpg sounds freakin’ awful, you have to compare like with like. I don’t know whether a steam car could, with 70 odd years of intense development, have ended up being as economical as a modern car, but it’s an interesting question to ponder. [/QUOTE] 10-14 MPG equals or beats cars built in the decades _after_ Doble ceased production. Many cars built well into the 1970s averaged around that much, and some of the larger SUVs as well as high performance sports cars _still_ clock in such numbers, and they have the _benefit_ of aerodynamics! Nor do we have to completely wonder what steam cars could do with 70 years of improvements. Hobbists have tweaked their steamers to improve their performance, and I imagine that improvements in burner design for things like gas/oil furnaces and water heaters could easily be adapted to a steam car. **Xema** , a condensor for a steam car doesn’t have to be all that large. One just has to make sure that it has sufficient airflow through it, which isn’t that hard to do with modern electric fans. You can read about Jay Leno’s [steam powered Doble here.](http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html)[Here’s a paper written by Abner Doble on steam cars in 1916.](http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/automo.Html)[Here’s a piping diagram for a Stanley with a condensor.](http://www.stanleysteamers.com/photoalbum/chaplinpix/diagram2.gif)[The Steam Automobile Club of America sells all kinds of technical publications related to steam cars.](http://www.steamautomobile.com/SACAStoreRoomItems/) ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/44 "2006-12-03T13:41:25Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Keeve the link to the Doble car was provided right back at the beginning, and then referred to several times after that. Anyhow, apologies accepted. [/QUOTE] Thanks, but I’m still confused. Are you referring to post #9, which was the first post in this thread to mention the Doble? [QUOTE=david8686a@netscape.net] By happenstance, I just finished reading the article on the Doble steam car at the site Damn Interesting in the section alternative energy, and it addresses both production issues as well as reasons that the car was a mechanical success and a production failure. (sorry I can’t link the site) [/QUOTE] There are no links there, and he doesn’t specify what he means by “the site”. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/45 "2006-12-04T01:12:52Z")
I am, sorry. I didn’t notice that he didn’t actually link. Also, the OP (I guess) intended to link to the Wiki page on steam cars but he accidentally mucked up his link. The Wiki page certainly mentions Doble cars. The link provided by yabob at #14 goes to an SDMB thread which also mentions and links to info about Doble cars. Nonethless, I apologise, I thought there were direct links provided. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/46 "2006-12-05T01:50:47Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] Fascinating! For those too lazy and/or unable to read that link, here’s some interesting notes about that Yugo: [ul]Fuel equivalency: 2.5 kg of wood takes you as far as one liter of gasoline.[/ul] [/QUOTE] If you run the numbers to convert units, that means that wood is about 3.38 times more energy-dense. (gas density: 737.22 kg/m3) That’s a difference, but it’s not an enormous difference. That Yugo is a home-grown project. I have no doubt that if any car companies started working on that problem they could greatly improve that system and get rid of most of the detrimental aspects. Yes, burning wood gas isn’t going to replace regular gas, but it’s interesting that such a weird system is even viable at all. And, as you later noted, it doesn’t have anything to do with steam engines, it’s just a tangental issue of alternative fuels. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/47 "2006-12-05T01:53:46Z")
Crap! That should be “ **GAS** is about 3.38 times more energy-dense.” ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/48 "2006-12-05T05:51:28Z")
[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog] . . . Each steam locomotive was another two guys you had to pay, and as even the bigger steam locos tended to be less powerful than their diesel-electric cousins, you needed more locos to begin with. . . . [/QUOTE] Minor nitpick. It was never about steam engines not having enough power. It is only recently that individual diesel locomotives became comparable in power with the articulated big boys of steam, like the Allegheny or, well, Big Boy. But, if you can just gang together a slew of efficent lightweights with the same crew as the single steam engine and you gain greater flexibility and easier maintenance, the superlocomotive really has no advantage over a string of diesels (where it would over a string of steam locomotives). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/49 "2006-12-05T09:15:26Z")
[QUOTE=Sleel] If you run the numbers to convert units, that means that wood is about 3.38 times more energy-dense. (gas density: 737.22 kg/m3) That’s a difference, but it’s not an enormous difference. That Yugo is a home-grown project. I have no doubt that if any car companies started working on that problem they could greatly improve that system and get rid of most of the detrimental aspects. Yes, burning wood gas isn’t going to replace regular gas, but it’s interesting that such a weird system is even viable at all. And, as you later noted, it doesn’t have anything to do with steam engines, it’s just a tangental issue of alternative fuels. [/QUOTE] IIRC, the big problem with producer gas engines is that they’re wet and your engine slowly rusts away. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/50 "2006-12-05T15:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] a condensor for a steam car doesn’t have to be all that large. One just has to make sure that it has sufficient airflow through it, which isn’t that hard to do with modern electric fans. [/QUOTE] Well, it would need to be sized for the worst case: fully loaded vehicle climbing a steep grade on a really hot day (say, 42 degrees C). I don’t know a quick way to do the calculations, but you’re looking at needing a lot of surface area and airflow. If you want to get by with a modestly sized condenser, you might need some truly ferocious fans (which themselves add weight, bulk, expense and power drain). ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/51 "2006-12-05T17:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=Xema] Well, it would need to be sized for the worst case: fully loaded vehicle climbing a steep grade on a really hot day (say, 42 degrees C). [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a multi-part heat exchanger? Once things get beyond a certain limit, pop open a valve and activate a second radiator matrix. That way you would have one optimised for normal conditions and still have the ability to deal with extreme conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/52 "2006-12-05T18:12:50Z")
[QUOTE=slaphead] Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a multi-part heat exchanger? Once things get beyond a certain limit, pop open a valve and activate a second radiator matrix. That way you would have one optimised for normal conditions and still have the ability to deal with extreme conditions. [/QUOTE] Most steamers have, in addition to a condensor, a heat exchanger (IIRC, they refer to it as an “economizer”) that routes the exhaust steam through a heat exchanger that dumps the heat from the steam into water flowing into the boiler, so the boiler has to do less work to get up to operating temperatures. Depending upon where you have the water tank in relation to everything, you could also route a steam line through that. So long as the water remains just under the boiling point, you’d be okay. One other benefit to steamers that hasn’t been mentioned is that a steam engine is “free reversing.” You can reverse the flow of steam through the engine and it’ll simply slow things down, rather that breaking it, like it would on a gas engine. This would save wear and tear on brakes. I don’t know if any cars were built with this feature or not. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/53 "2006-12-05T18:21:44Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] You can read about Jay Leno’s [steam powered Doble here.](http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html) [/QUOTE] ONE THOUSAND POUND FEET OF TORQUE?!?!? Excuse me while I try to get my jawbone back where it belongs. (shaking my head) All that torque put into 1925 tires, too. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/54 "2006-12-05T18:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=MMI] Minor nitpick. It was never about steam engines not having enough power. It is only recently that individual diesel locomotives became comparable in power with the articulated big boys of steam, like the Allegheny or, well, Big Boy. But, if you can just gang together a slew of efficent lightweights with the same crew as the single steam engine and you gain greater flexibility and easier maintenance, the superlocomotive really has no advantage over a string of diesels (where it would over a string of steam locomotives). [/QUOTE] Nit - nit - minor nit pick ::::: For busting snowbound passes in the mountains, it has only been rather recently that the (IIRC) Union Pacific( ? ) quit using the big steam engine to open the line. Also remember, (IIRC) that a steam engines maximum torque is at zero RPM and that can be quite advantageous. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/55 "2006-12-05T19:08:20Z")
[QUOTE=Keeve] That Wikipedia article pointed me to [this one](http://ghlin2.greenhills.net/~apatter/doble.html), which mentions a Doble E19 which ran “10 to 14 miles per gallon on fuel oil”. I pondered that statistic for a bit, having no idea what mileage other cars of that vintage were getting. [/QUOTE] I have read that a Model A Ford is about a 15 mpg car. Wikipedia says 20-30, but I think that’s extremely optimistic for an engine that used 200 cubic inches to produce only 40 HP. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/56 "2006-12-05T19:12:28Z")
[QUOTE=Rocketeer] I have read that a Model A Ford is about a 15 mpg car. Wikipedia says 20-30, but I think that’s extremely optimistic for an engine that used 200 cubic inches to produce only 40 HP. [/QUOTE] Ah, I finally found the Model A’s compression ratio. 3.7 to 1. Not a very efficient engine. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/57 "2006-12-05T19:48:47Z")
[QUOTE=GusNSpot] Nit - nit - minor nit pick ::::: For busting snowbound passes in the mountains, it has only been rather recently that the (IIRC) Union Pacific( ? ) quit using the big steam engine to open the line. Also remember, (IIRC) that a steam engines maximum torque is at zero RPM and that can be quite advantageous. YMMV [/QUOTE] Doesn’t an electric motor also produce max torque at 0 RPM? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305/58 "2006-12-05T20:08:27Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Doesn’t an electric motor also produce max torque at 0 RPM? [/QUOTE] Yup. I may be wrong, but I think that there might be a size advantage to steamers in relation to HP, with an electric motor being larger and heavier than a steam engine of the same HP. In both cases, however, the massive amount of torque that they put out enables vehicles powered by them to use smaller HP engines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-steam-powered-cars-lose-out-to-gasoline-powered-ones/382305.md?page=2)