Why did the buffalo just not go away?

[Mangetout]

@Sailboat

Ask the Native Americans [why](link broken) horses had to be introduced to North America.

That link launched some malware ‘my computer scan’ thing.

[Chefguy]

So my understanding of this thread is that either commodore or Klomodo or Komodo dragons kill buffalo, and clack people sell crack. It’s a strange world.

[Shmendrik]

@Blake

And how, pray tell, could such an instinct possibly eveolve?

Er… the same way as any other instinct? Individuals who kept drinking the water after a crocodile killed their brother are more likely to pass on their genes than individuals who scamper off into the desert?

[Lemur866]

@psychonaut

Really? The vast majority of European bison (one of the two extant bison species) were killed by Indians? I must have missed that part of European history.

There were several species of bison in North America, but only one was left by 1492 (two if you count the “forest bison” as a separate species from the plains bison).

There were all sorts of large animal species in North America that didn’t survive the end of the ice age, which also coincided with the introduction of humans. The notion that the Americas were some sort of pristine untouched wilderness is a fiction.

[Mangetout]

@Chefguy

So my understanding of this thread is that either commodore or Klomodo or Komodo dragons kill buffalo, and clack people sell crack. It’s a strange world.

maybe you need some spleep.

[Darwin_s_Finch]

@Wakinyan

I always figured that there’s a instinctive understanding that group survives while an individual dies; if Animal so-and-so is killed, it really doesn’t matter to the group – and the group, of course, is crucial for survival of the species, not the individual.

However, if all the individuals would think: I can’t drink from that river, there’s crocodiles there!, then the whole group perish. So, everyone instinctively flinch when the croc kills so-and-so, but everyone has the “evolutionary memory” if you will, that this happens from time to time, but it is not a threat to the group. So they go back, and drink again as if nothing happened.

Nice idea, except for the fact that group selection isn’t an evolutionary mechanism, and hasn’t been considered as such for quite some time…

@AClockworkMelon

Second, as for Wakinyan’s idea, after reading The Selfish Gene not too long ago I’ve been convinced enough to lean towards believing that it’s gene survival strategies and not group survival strategies that control the evolution of species.

Doesn’t work that way either, since genes don’t have survival strategies. Some selection occurs at the level of “gene”, but a good deal more occurs at the level of “individual”.

[Machine_Elf]

@Chefguy

So my understanding of this thread is that either commodore or Klomodo or Komodo dragons kill buffalo, and clack people sell crack. It’s a strange world.

Maybe Clamato dragons?

[42fish]

@Joe Frickin Friday

Maybe Clamato dragons?

I did a claymation film of the Clamato Dragons on my Commodore 64.

[Shmendrik]

@Darwin_s_Finch

Nice idea, except for the fact that group selection isn’t an evolutionary mechanism, and hasn’t been considered as such for quite some time…

Doesn’t work that way either, since genes don’t have survival strategies. Some selection occurs at the level of “gene”, but a good deal more occurs at the level of “individual”.

As I stated above, it seems that the evolution of this behavior can be explained in terms of individual selection.

[Chefguy]

@42fish

I did a claymation film of the Clamato Dragons on my Commodore 64.

You mean a Komododore 64.

[Zsofia]

I’m not saying anything about the nature doc in question, but I was shocked to learn that there were staged scenes in Winged Migration, which was a super high budget theatrically released bird documentary. Specifically, the bird trapped in oil.

[SmackFu]

This set of documentaries, and Planet Earth before it, is actually pretty cool about showing a 10 minute bit at the end that shows how one segment was filmed. In this episode, it was the Komodo Dragon segment, so I would really doubt it was staged.

[CookingWithGas]

@Oldeb

I was all set to nitpick this, since I had always heard that the only poisonous lizards were the gila monster and the Mexican beaded lizard. But it turns out that the Komodo was added to that list just last year. Cool. Short of discovering they can breathe fire too, this was the only way to make them better.

I was ready to nitpick it when I heard Oprah say it in the show (in the US they threw out Attenborough’s narration in favor of that well-known nature expert :rolleyes:). I had always heard that the KD depended on the vile bacteria in its bite to infect its prey then just wait it out until it died of infection. But when I looked it up I was surprised to see that it was found to be venomous.

On spelling: It’s amusing to see that Google Spell Check doesn’t recognize Komodo and renders it variously as kimono and commode, among others.

[John_Mace]

In the first episode, when they showed the 3 cheetahs hunting together, they said something to the effect that this was some new behavior that had never been documented before. If I am not mistaken, and someone correct me please, this is pretty common behavior for siblings when they first leave the care of their mothers.

But the filming was great. Nice show to watch, but don’t believe everything you hear on it.

[muldoonthief]

@CookingWithGas

I was ready to nitpick it when I heard Oprah say it in the show (in the US they threw out Attenborough’s narration in favor of that well-known nature expert :rolleyes:).

(my bolding)

WTF? They used Oprah to narrate it? It was bad enough having Sigourney Weaver narrate “Planet Earth”, but Oprah?

[BubbaDog]

I thought the segment covered the Komodo Dragon’s issues pretty well. They don’t kill their prey quickly because they don’t have to. The prey is usually confined to the island. The Komodo can smell and track sick, dying, dead prey from miles away so there’s no reason to actively pursue their prey once it is bitten. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the smell of the victim’s blood and the Dragon’s venom triggers them into a stalking behavior.

The buffalo is usually not solitary and is probably stubborn and somewhat stupid when it finds itself in a situation where it is singled out. It probably assumed it could defend itself against a short flat attacker and after being bitten it still didn’t comprehend that the dragon was more than a nuisance. In the film footage the buffalo acted like it was driven off and not necessarily trying to escape for its life.

[John_Mace]

@muldoonthief

(my bolding)

WTF? They used Oprah to narrate it? It was bad enough having Sigourney Weaver narrate “Planet Earth”, but Oprah?

Yes, Oprah. It has come to that.

[Lumpy]

@BubbaDog

I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the smell of the victim’s blood and the Dragon’s venom triggers them into a stalking behavior.

Slight nitpick: IIRC, Komodo dragons do not actually secrete venom like a poisonous snake; rather, their mouths are so septic (rotting shreds of meat stuck between their teeth) that their bite is effectively poisonous. An effective strategy for a slow-metabolism hunter/scavenger, whose prey has nowhere to run to, and can afford to wait days or weeks for it’s prey to die.

[John_Mace]

@Lumpy

Slight nitpick: IIRC, Komodo dragons do not actually secrete venom like a poisonous snake; rather, their mouths are so septic (rotting shreds of meat stuck between their teeth) that their bite is effectively poisonous. An effective strategy for a slow-metabolism hunter/scavenger, whose prey has nowhere to run to, and can afford to wait days or weeks for it’s prey to die.

This has recently been disputed. From wikipedia:

In late 2005, researchers at the University of Melbourne speculated that the perentie (Varanus giganteus), other species of monitor, and agamids may be somewhat venomous. The team believes that the immediate effects of bites from these lizards were caused by mild envenomation. Bites on human digits by a lace monitor (V. varius), a Komodo dragon, and a spotted tree monitor (V. scalaris) all produced similar effects: rapid swelling, localized disruption of blood clotting, and shooting pain up to the elbow, with some symptoms lasting for several hours.[30]

In 2009, the same researchers published further evidence demonstrating that Komodo dragons possess a venomous bite. MRI scans of a preserved skull showed the presence of two venom glands in the lower jaw. They extracted one of these glands from the head of a terminally ill specimen in the Singapore Zoological Gardens, and found that it secreted a venom containing several different toxic proteins. The known functions of these proteins include inhibition of blood clotting, lowering of blood pressure, muscle paralysis, and the induction of hypothermia, leading to shock and loss of consciousness in envenomated prey.[31][32] As a result of the discovery, the previous theory that bacteria were responsible for the deaths of komodo victims was disputed.[33]

Kurt Schwenk, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Connecticut finds the discovery of these glands intriguing, but considers most of the evidence for venom in the study to be “meaningless, irrelevant, incorrect or falsely misleading”. Even if the lizards have venomlike proteins in their mouths, Schwenk argues, they may be using them for a different function, and he doubts that venom is necessary to explain the effect of a Komodo dragon bite, arguing that shock and blood loss are the primary factors.[34][35]

[jasg]

@BubbaDog

I thought the segment covered the Komodo Dragon’s issues pretty well. They don’t kill their prey quickly because they don’t have to. The prey is usually confined to the island. The Komodo can smell and track sick, dying, dead prey from miles away so there’s no reason to actively pursue their prey once it is bitten. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the smell of the victim’s blood and the Dragon’s venom triggers them into a stalking behavior.

The buffalo is usually not solitary and is probably stubborn and somewhat stupid when it finds itself in a situation where it is singled out. It probably assumed it could defend itself against a short flat attacker and after being bitten it still didn’t comprehend that the dragon was more than a nuisance. In the film footage the buffalo acted like it was driven off and not necessarily trying to escape for its life.

I watched that episode last night, and the narration (yes, Oprah - not Sir David, dang it) pretty much explained just that.

The segment explained that the Komodo is typically a carrion eater, not a full time hunter and takes a low risk approach when it hunts. It went on to say that buffalo didn’t recognize the dragon as a serious threat - it was just an annoyance, nipping at its heels. (It does not appear that the Asian buffalo evolved side by side with the komodo and would not instinctively avoid the toxic/poisonous bite.)