# Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/1 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")
The FBI in their FISA warrent asserts that Carter Page is “a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power…”. This is a lie because in 2013 Carter Page assisted the FBI in their case against a Russian spy ring resulting in the conviction of Evgeny Buryakov. In 2016 Carter Page was still assisting the FBI in this case which resulted in a plea deal. The FBI knew that Carter Page wasn’t an agent of a foreign power. In the heavily redacted document I doubt that the FBI explained how the once cooperative Carter Page changed into an agent of a foreign power in a matter of months. [FISA Warrent](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/95-carter-page-fisa-documents-foia-release/full/optimized.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/2 "2018-08-13T16:28:39Z")
[Ongoing Discussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=859415&highlight=FISA) already in progress. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/3 "2018-08-13T16:58:31Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FBI in their FISA warrent asserts that Carter Page is “a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power…”. This is a lie because in 2013 Carter Page assisted the FBI in their case against a Russian spy ring resulting in the conviction of Evgeny Buryakov. In 2016 Carter Page was still assisting the FBI in this case which resulted in a plea deal. The FBI knew that Carter Page wasn’t an agent of a foreign power. > > In the heavily redacted document I doubt that the FBI explained how the once cooperative Carter Page changed into an agent of a foreign power in a matter of months. > > [FISA Warrent](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/95-carter-page-fisa-documents-foia-release/full/optimized.pdf) Have you looked at page 13 of your cite? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/4 "2018-08-13T17:27:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Have you looked at page 13 of your cite? And your take on that is what? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/5 "2018-08-13T18:00:15Z")
What do you think it says? The unredacted part right at the top, that is. Along with a similar unredacted sentence on page 12. Do those words have anything to do with Page talking to the FBI, do you suppose? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/6 "2018-08-13T19:10:46Z")
Cite for where it is/was required that the FBI disclose prior working with Page and how its relevant to this specific warrant application? Cite that they ‘lied’ about any prior workings with Page? Not disclosing it is not a ‘lie’. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/7 "2018-08-13T19:26:31Z")
In what specific way was the assistance, if any, given in the Evgeny Buryakov matter inconsistent with being agent of a foreign power? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/8 "2018-08-14T04:46:17Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Cite for where it is/was required that the FBI disclose prior working with Page and how its relevant to this specific warrant application? > > Cite that they ‘lied’ about any prior workings with Page? Not disclosing it is not a ‘lie’. The point is that they know he’s not “an agent of a foreign government” because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”. Not disclosing is a lie of omission. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/9 "2018-08-14T04:47:33Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > In what specific way was the assistance, if any, given in the Evgeny Buryakov matter inconsistent with being agent of a foreign power? You’ll have to ask the FBI about that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/10 "2018-08-14T04:53:55Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The point is that they know he’s not “an agent of a foreign government” because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”. Why can’t “an agent of a foreign government” assist the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”? What do you think happens if he tries? Does his throat close up _after_ he starts key a sentence, but _before_ he finishes it? Does mighty Zeus smite him with a thunderbolt? What? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/11 "2018-08-14T05:10:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The point is that they know he’s not “an agent of a foreign government” …they don’t **know this.** They actually strongly suspect that he is. Which is why they are investigating him. > [@](#): > > because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”. Kim Philby was awarded the Order of the British Empire. As a high-ranking member of British Intelligence he was involved in many cases of investigating people who were acting as agents of a foreign government. He also happened to be working as an agent for a foreign government. It is entirely possible to both help convict someone acting as an agent for a foreign government \*\*and \*\*be an agent for a foreign government and its bizarre that anyone could think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/12 "2018-08-14T06:32:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …they don’t **know this.** > > They actually strongly suspect that he is. Which is why they are investigating him. No they don’t because they know better but they also know they can use him as a doorway into the Trump campaign which is the whole point of the exercise. > [@](#): > > Kim Philby was awarded the Order of the British Empire. As a high-ranking member of British Intelligence he was involved in many cases of investigating people who were acting as agents of a foreign government. > > He also happened to be working as an agent for a foreign government. > > It is entirely possible to both help convict someone acting as an agent for a foreign government \*\*and \*\*be an agent for a foreign government and its bizarre that anyone could think otherwise. Exceptions are not the rule. Carter Page is still living in the USA, hasn’t been charged and will not be charged. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/13 "2018-08-14T07:35:59Z")
Exceptions are not the rule because, if they were, they wouldn’t be exceptions. But exceptions do exist. Why should Carter Page not be an exception? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/14 "2018-08-14T07:54:29Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > No they don’t …what do you mean “no they don’t?” They don’t what? > [@](#): > > because they know better They know better than whom or what? > [@](#): > > but they also know they can use him as a doorway into the Trump campaign which is the whole point of the exercise. Or they could be doing exactly what they say they are doing. Investigating Page. Why should we believe you over the FBI? > [@](#): > > Exceptions are not the rule. “Exceptions are not the rule” is not an actual rule. > [@](#): > > Carter Page is still living in the USA, Well done! Thanks for stating the obvious. > [@](#): > > hasn’t been charged and will not be charged. Whether or not he will or won’t be charged has nothing at all to do with your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/15 "2018-08-14T08:37:38Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Not disclosing is a lie of omission. Then what’s on pages 12 and 13 of the warrant application? It can’t be an omission if it is actually in the application. I don’t think you have actually read your cites. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/16 "2018-08-14T10:23:22Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The point is that they know he’s not “an agent of a foreign government” because he has assisted the FBI in convicting an individual that was acting as “an agent of a foreign government”. Except that quite literally does not follow. Nothing about helping the FBI convict a foreign agent interferes with the possibility of being a foreign agent. It’s literally a non-sequitur, because we already know how Page has, in the past, acted as a foreign agent: “On CNN the former foreign policy adviser and energy consultant declined to answer four times whether he had relationships with Russian officials and declined to elaborate on an academic letter he wrote in 2013, in which he described himself as an “informal adviser” to the Kremlin.” > **[Trump-Russia: FBI believed Carter Page 'collaborated and conspired' with Moscow](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/22/trump-administration-releases-carter-page-wiretap-documents)** > > Former Trump adviser denies being ‘agent of foreign power’ while president accuses his own government of serious malpractice ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/17 "2018-08-14T10:34:56Z")
We know Carter Page isn’t acting as a “foreign agent” and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/18 "2018-08-14T10:38:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Then what’s on pages 12 and 13 of the warrant application? It can’t be an omission if it is actually in the application. > > I don’t think you have actually read your cites. You need to see the redacted part which could change the meaning of what isn’t redacted. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/19 "2018-08-14T10:44:51Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > We know Carter Page isn’t acting as a “foreign agent” and so does the FBI. If he were he would have been arrested. Well, that’s where the argument ends. I think everything to be said on the subject has been said. Anyone disagree with me? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/20 "2018-08-14T10:50:31Z")
From the FISA application… > [@](#): > > “The target of this application is Carter W. Page, a U.S. person, and an agent of a foreign power…” Notice they don’t say “think”, “believe”, “suspected”. Where’s the evidence he’s “an agent of a foreign power”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=2)