# Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/321 "2019-12-17T19:00:10Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Crimes committed before he joined the Trump campaign and before Trump declared his candidacy. False. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/322 "2019-12-17T19:04:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > How does the exoneration of Carter Page make this a “hoax”? Are 17 intelligence agencies concluding that Russia interfered in the 2016 election part of this “hoax”? Are those already indited and convicted also victims of the “hoax”? We’re making progress here, you concede that Carter Page was exonerated and that the FBI lied about Carter Page on the FISA warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/323 "2019-12-17T19:04:49Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Counter Narrative: Straight up Russian propaganda counter narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/324 "2019-12-17T19:07:58Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Counter Narrative: > > [Hacker: Guccifer 2.0 Planted Fake Russian Fingerprints On His Account](https://bigleaguepolitics.com/hacker-guccifer-2-0-planted-fake-russian-fingerprints-account/) Please stop spreading Russian propaganda. It is against our national security interests to do this. You are harming our country. [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/471692-intel-officials-told-senators-russia-wanted-to-pin-election-meddling](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/471692-intel-officials-told-senators-russia-wanted-to-pin-election-meddling) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/325 "2019-12-17T19:19:25Z")
> **[Briton ran pro-Kremlin disinformation campaign that helped Trump deny Russian...](https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252445769/Briton-ran-pro-Kremlin-disinformation-campaign-that-helped-Trump-deny-Russian-links)** > > A British IT manager and former hacker launched and ran an international Russian-influenced disinformation campaign that has twice provided US President Donald Trump with fake evidence and false arguments to deny that Russia interfered to help him in... Enjoy the thread, everyone! ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/326 "2019-12-17T19:23:30Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Please stop spreading Russian propaganda. It is against our national security interests to do this. You are harming our country. > > [https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/471692-intel-officials-told-senators-russia-wanted-to-pin-election-meddling](https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/471692-intel-officials-told-senators-russia-wanted-to-pin-election-meddling) It’s not Russian Propaganda… [CrowdStrikeOut: Mueller’s Own Report Undercuts Its Core Russia-Meddling Claims](https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2019/07/05/crowdstrikeout_muellers_own_report_undercuts_its_core_russia-meddling_claims.html) > [@](#): > > While the 448-page Mueller report found no conspiracy between Donald Trump’s campaign and Russia, it offered voluminous details to support the sweeping conclusion that the Kremlin worked to secure Trump’s victory. The report claims that the interference operation occurred “principally” on two fronts: Russian military intelligence officers hacked and leaked embarrassing Democratic Party documents, and a government-linked troll farm orchestrated a sophisticated and far-reaching social media campaign that denigrated Hillary Clinton and promoted Trump. > > But a close examination of the report shows that none of those headline assertions are supported by the report’s evidence or other publicly available sources. They are further undercut by investigative shortcomings and the conflicts of interest of key players involved: ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/327 "2019-12-17T19:33:05Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > There’s no proof of that because that’s not what happened. Provide a cite for it. Anyone else getting a Baghdad Bob vibe? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/328 "2019-12-17T19:33:19Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > It’s not Russian Propaganda… > > [CrowdStrikeOut: Mueller’s Own Report Undercuts Its Core Russia-Meddling Claims](https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2019/07/05/crowdstrikeout_muellers_own_report_undercuts_its_core_russia-meddling_claims.html) Yes it is. You should not be trying to harm your country this way. It is very unpatriotic. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/329 "2019-12-17T19:38:48Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yes it is. > > You should not be trying to harm your country this way. It is very unpatriotic. Why did the FBI act in an unpatriotic way by lying about a US Citizen, a patriot that was working with the CIA? Did that harm the country? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/330 "2019-12-17T19:40:54Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > We’re making progress here, you concede that Carter Page was exonerated and that the FBI lied about Carter Page on the FISA warrant. I accept the IG findings re: Carter Page. I think most folks here do at this point. Not sure what your point is but if you want to take a victory lap, be my guest. Don’t wear yourself out though. It’s a pyrrhic victory. The FBI/FISA process will be fixed as a result. But Carter Page was/is/will be a village idiot and it should embarrass you deeply to have him as your poster child because, as the Russians themselves said on record, the guy is “an idiot”. Most importantly, it does not clear any of the already indicted and convicted Trump associates, nor, ultimately Trump himself on record in asking for foreign involvement in US elections process. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/331 "2019-12-17T19:49:49Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Why did the FBI act in an unpatriotic way by lying about a US Citizen, a patriot that was working with the CIA? Did that harm the country? Why don’t you support US law enforcement? I thought your side was all about supporting cops, why has that changed all of a sudden when your guys started getting busted trying to subvert our democracy? It’s almost like you don’t think right wingers should be accountable for their actions? That is not very American, nor is spreading Russian propaganda when they are known to be attacking our elections. You are hurting our country. Your actions are helping Putin and badly harming America. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/332 "2019-12-17T19:51:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I accept the IG findings re: Carter Page. I think most folks here do at this point. Not sure what your point is but if you want to take a victory lap, be my guest. Don’t wear yourself out though. It’s a pyrrhic victory. The FBI/FISA process will be fixed as a result. But Carter Page was/is/will be a village idiot and it should embarrass you deeply to have him as your poster child because, as the Russians themselves said on record, the guy is “an idiot”. Most importantly, it does not clear any of the already indicted and convicted Trump associates, nor, ultimately Trump himself on record in asking for foreign involvement in US elections process. You’re missing the point…This isn’t about Carter Page, it’s about the violation of his civil rights. You don’t get that, you want to call him names but him unlike you provided valuable information to the CIA and assisted the FBI in prosecuting actual Russian spies. The idiots are the individuals in the FBI, and there were many of them, who lied and altered evidence to get a warrant on Carter Page so that they could spy on the Trump campaign and the Trump presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/333 "2019-12-17T19:54:58Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > This is how far people will go to not see the plain truth right in front of their eyes, a classic case of cognitive dissonance. Carter Page admits to every component of being a Russian foreign agent and you’re claiming that they’re lying on the basis that the FBI agrees with what Carter Page himself said about Carter Page. I would suggest that the conversation has moved on to attacks on you not because others have experienced cognitive dissonance but because that’s where you’ve decided to land yourself. And, I’ll note, a good test for cognitive dissonance is if a person is capricious in a single instance. If you have quotes like, “Murder all the Chinese people!”, “Murder all the Jews!”, “Murder all the Mexicans!” And we’re agreed that those are all racist, but you look at the quote, “Murder all the black people!” and don’t think that’s racist - well… It’s safe to say that you’re racist against black people. That’s why I use parallels; examples that are free from partisan bias. If you look at quotes where Carter Page says, “Yes, I know they’re foreign intelligence. Yes, I perform tasks for them.” But your mind thinks, “He’s not admitting to being a foreign agent! He never says, ‘I’m a Russian agent!’ and Sage Rat told me that he says that he is!” Well, no, I said that he has admitted to every component of the definition of being a foreign agent. If James said that he has a body fat percentage of 40%, we would agree that he’s obese. We would both agree that he’s admitted to every competent of the qualifying criteria for being obese. And whether James accepts the diagnosis or not is irrelevant; the definition doesn’t change just for James. And, we might also note, that it doesn’t matter whether he admits to having a body fat percentage of 40% or not. If he is at that level, regardless of what he admits, then he’s still obese. If Linda is a professional assassin and you have video of her taking money to kill a guy, and video of her actually killing that guy, it is irrelevant whether she denies that she’s an assassin or whether she proclaims innocence, she’s still a professional assassin. If you believe that you have some way around that or that your brain is being honest to itself in saying that it’s irrelevant that Page admits to performing tasks for people he knows to be Russian Intelligence agents that ask yourself what you would say to someone if they were taking James’ side and trying to defend the idea that he’s a slender reed. Do you think that you’d feel like they had a point? Or would it just be an eye rolling experience? Ultimately, you’re free to pretend that you’re correct, that you’ve always been correct, and that you have some form of logic behind that. We can’t stop you. But if you feel mocked and belittled, you can blame others, but we tend to get the world we build for ourselves and this is just where you’ve gotten yourself. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/334 "2019-12-17T20:07:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Carter Page admits to every component of being a Russian foreign agent and you’re claiming that they’re lying on the basis that the FBI agrees with what Carter Page himself said about Carter Page. > > I would suggest that the conversation has moved on to attacks on you not because others have experienced cognitive dissonance but because that’s where you’ve decided to land yourself. > > And, I’ll note, a good test for cognitive dissonance is if a person is capricious in a single instance. If you have quotes like, “Murder all the Chinese people!”, “Murder all the Jews!”, “Murder all the Mexicans!” And we’re agreed that those are all racist, but you look at the quote, “Murder all the black people!” and don’t think that’s racist - well… It’s safe to say that you’re racist against black people. > > That’s why I use parallels; examples that are free from partisan bias. > > If you look at quotes where Carter Page says, “Yes, I know they’re foreign intelligence. Yes, I perform tasks for them.” But your mind thinks, “He’s not admitting to being a foreign agent! He never says, ‘I’m a Russian agent!’ and Sage Rat told me that he says that he is!” Well, no, I said that he has admitted to every component of the definition of being a foreign agent. > > If James said that he has a body fat percentage of 40%, we would agree that he’s obese. We would both agree that he’s admitted to every competent of the qualifying criteria for being obese. And whether James accepts the diagnosis or not is irrelevant; the definition doesn’t change just for James. And, we might also note, that it doesn’t matter whether he admits to having a body fat percentage of 40% or not. If he is at that level, regardless of what he admits, then he’s still obese. > > If Linda is a professional assassin and you have video of her taking money to kill a guy, and video of her actually killing that guy, it is irrelevant whether she denies that she’s an assassin or whether she proclaims innocence, she’s still a professional assassin. > > If you believe that you have some way around that or that your brain is being honest to itself in saying that it’s irrelevant that Page admits to performing tasks for people he knows to be Russian Intelligence agents that ask yourself what you would say to someone if they were taking James’ side and trying to defend the idea that he’s a slender reed. Do you think that you’d feel like they had a point? Or would it just be an eye rolling experience? > > Ultimately, you’re free to pretend that you’re correct, that you’ve always been correct, and that you have some form of logic behind that. We can’t stop you. But if you feel mocked and belittled, you can blame others, but we tend to get the world we build for ourselves and this is just where you’ve gotten yourself. Show me anywhere but here where real journalist are buying into the notion that Carter Page was acting on behalf of the Russians. The IG Report blows that notion so far out of the water that Jim Comey FIRED head of the FBI concedes that the IG Report is correct and Adam Schiff who made all kinds of claims about how the FISA process was followed, yada, yada, is now saying had he known he would be saying something different. People are pissed off about what happened to Carter Page because the FBI had proof from the CIA that he was working with them and you don’t see anyone anywhere making the claim today that Carter Page is a Russian agent or working for the Russians or whatever. People are being criminally investigated about this FISC fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/335 "2019-12-17T20:31:48Z")
The IG report says that some procedures were not followed and in one instance one person did something that could be viewed as dishonest in the FISA renewal process in an effort to get out of doing a lot of typing. This is not an exoneration of Carter Page. The IG report does not say that Carter Page was improperly surveilled. The IG report does not say that Carter Page was working with the CIA in 2016. The IG report shows that the FBI sought to surveil Carter Page with a good faith belief that doing so was in the interest of national security. The IG report shows that FBI pursued this investigation for the right reasons and without political bias. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/336 "2019-12-17T20:35:23Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The IG report says that some procedures were not followed and in one instance one person did something that could be viewed as dishonest in the FISA renewal process in an effort to get out of doing a lot of typing. This is not an exoneration of Carter Page. > > The IG report does not say that Carter Page was improperly surveilled. > > The IG report does not say that Carter Page was working with the CIA in 2016. > > The IG report shows that the FBI sought to surveil Carter Page with a good faith belief that doing so was in the interest of national security. > > The IG report shows that FBI pursued this investigation for the right reasons and without political bias. /thread ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/337 "2019-12-17T20:42:56Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Show me anywhere but here where real journalist are buying into the notion that Carter Page was acting on behalf of the Russians. I could take the cites where it discusses Page’s admissions of knowing who he was performing tasks for and edit that down, rather than grabbing full paragraphs, and pick out words to make it seem as though Page explicitly said, “I work for Russia.” If I did that, of course, you would say that I’m not giving honest quotes and you would be correct in that assessment. Likewise, I could find some arbitrary person in the journal-sphere who said what I wanted them to say. All that would prove is that it’s not hard to find a person who agrees with you when you have thousands to choose from. I doubt that you would find that convincing, nor should it, and all we would arrive at is you telling me that I’ve picked bias sources. We have the primary and authoritative source. Secondary sources are not somehow more meaningful. Per Horowitz, Page has explicitly stated that he has gathered non-public information for people he knew to be Russian intelligence officers. Am I lying? If I am not lying, then do you see a way for that to not fit the exact definition of a foreign agent, according to the US code that was specified? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/338 "2019-12-17T20:45:47Z")
“I have had the privilege to serve as an informal advisor to the staff of the Kremlin […]” - Carter Page ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/339 "2019-12-17T21:48:04Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Are these reporters MAGA Trump lovers too? > > Matt Taibbi > > [Horowitz Report Reveals the Steele Dossier Was Always a Joke](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/horowitz-report-steele-dossier-collusion-news-media-924944/) So? Nobody said the Steele dossier was the Warren Commission report. It was political gossip-gathering, started IIRC by the Jeb! campaign during the primary. It was mainly used to get the warrants. Warrants are obtained on “probable cause” (meaning: just this side of “innuendo”) all the time. Get serious. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/340 "2019-12-17T22:55:43Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Why did the FBI act in an unpatriotic way by lying about a US Citizen, a patriot that was working with the CIA? Did that harm the country? Maybe, just maybe, it’s because it comes as a disturbing shock to find out that a guy who had previously been useful in providing information about his contacts with Russian spies ends up on the inside of a presidential campaign. Why the fuck is he there?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=18)