# Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/341 "2019-12-17T23:15:52Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Warrants are obtained on “probable cause” (meaning: just this side of “innuendo”) all the time. It seems the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court does not subscribe to your casual standard for FISA evidence. [They have issued](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/secret-fisa-court-issues-highly-unusual-rebuke-fbi-mistakes-n1103451) a “highly unusual public rebuke” of the FBI for its many lapses, as outlined in the IG report. > [@](#): > > Collyer [FISC presiding judge] said the FBI’s handling of the Page case “was antithetical to the heightened duty of candor” required by the law that established the surveillance court. Judges on the court rely entirely on the government’s submissions. Because they are the only documents the court sees, the government has a heightened duty of candor, she said. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/342 "2019-12-17T23:24:27Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Warrants are obtained on “probable cause” (meaning: just this side of “innuendo”) all the time. > > Get serious. This is not quite applicable to FISA. Regular courts and warrants can be scrutinized to ensure that there is, at least, innuendo. Maintaining a higher bar for FISA makes sense since, if the scrutinized version falls to innuendo, it’s safe to say that the non-scrutinized version has a very easy slide towards becoming even worse, minus massive effort to prevent it from doing so. But, on the other hand, it should probably be said that it is conceivable that a cause of the “sloppiness” is simply that the officers are used to the Miranda/ordinary court system standard of taking things to a judge - if that’s the majority of work that they do. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/343 "2019-12-18T00:24:42Z")
The FISA Court issued a public order condemning the FBI for Russia probe abuses and demanded reforms: [https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6600-fisa-court-demands-answers-fro/87f1132ddc399b0c99b1/optimized/full.pdf#page=1](https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/6600-fisa-court-demands-answers-fro/87f1132ddc399b0c99b1/optimized/full.pdf#page=1) ETA: Save Target As; it’s a pdf file. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/344 "2019-12-18T01:22:04Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Also keep in mind when Mueller was appointed as Special Counsel the FBI knew the Steele Dossier was bogus… The Steele dossier isn’t bogus. At least, there is no evidence it is. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/345 "2019-12-18T01:44:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > MAGA is essentially all based on conspiracy theories. George Soros. Obama spying. Ukraine interfered with the 2016 election and not Russia. Pizza gate. Lock her up. > > If you take the CTs out of MAGA, what is left? Tax cuts for the richest. Kids in cages. Red ballcaps, those are tangible. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/346 "2019-12-18T02:02:37Z")
I love all this FBI bashing. They were so anti-Trump, they kept their investigations completely under wraps during the campaign and election, while keeping the public very well informed on Her Emails every step of the way. This is evidence that they were anti-Trump, somehow, in the world where the sky is green. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/347 "2019-12-18T15:31:45Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You’re missing the point…This isn’t about Carter Page, it’s about the violation of his civil rights. You don’t get that, you want to call him names but him unlike you provided valuable information to the CIA and assisted the FBI in prosecuting actual Russian spies. The idiots are the individuals in the FBI, and there were many of them, who lied and altered evidence to get a warrant on Carter Page so that they could spy on the Trump campaign and the Trump presidency. If his civil rights have been violated, his team of lawyers will ensure that it is rectified and he is appropriately compensated. I can sleep at night knowing that he will have his day in court. I’m also confident that whatever problems are identified in the FISA process are being corrected to the tune of about 40 recommended changes, according to reports. You may want push the idea that Carter Page is the unsung hero in this, but it’s a false narrative and _you_ know it’s a false narrative. You cannot watch and hear Carter Page in his numerous media appearances and pretend for a hot second that he is an honest and mentally competent actor in all this. Carter Page, with the most generous allowances, is a bumbling fucking idiot. He was used by the Russians and by the CIA and by the FBI and subsequently discarded because they all quickly realized he is of no value to anyone. So, while being stupid is not a crime, it does not prevent anyone from being a criminal or an accessory to a crime, including espionage. Carter Page was briefly thought to be a useful idiot but fell far short of the ‘useful’ bit. I’ve no doubt he’ll continue to mumble, stumble, dissemble, blink and grin like the fucking idiot that he is until people stop paying attention to him. I’d say his 15 minutes are nearly up. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/348 "2019-12-18T16:04:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Steele dossier isn’t bogus. At least, there is no evidence it is. I won’t be sure until I see the Pee Tape. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/349 "2019-12-18T16:09:51Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I won’t be sure until I see the Pee Tape. It will be _PERFECT_. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/350 "2019-12-18T17:00:43Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > It seems the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court does not subscribe to your casual standard for FISA evidence. [They have issued](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/secret-fisa-court-issues-highly-unusual-rebuke-fbi-mistakes-n1103451) a “highly unusual public rebuke” of the FBI for its many lapses, as outlined in the IG report. Uh huh. I’d love to have been a fly on the wall when they drafted this “highly unusual rebuke”… “_sigh_ Okay, the Feebs got caught putting their thumb on the scale. How are we going to word this to make it look like a reprimand for, oh, I don’t know, _doing their goddamn job??_” “Um, okay…Okay! Okay! I’ll know what we’ll say… Here we go: \*‘the FBI’s handling of the Page case was antithetical to the heightened duty of candor required by the law that established the surveillance court. Judges on the court rely entirely on the government’s submissions. Because they are the only documents the court sees, the government has a heightened duty of candor, she said.’ \* How’s that, guys? Work for you?” [Applause and laughter] “Great! Hubie, type that up and deliver it to Tenth and Pennsylvania. And try to wipe the shit-eating grin off your face. It’s unprofessional.” * * * Yeah, guys, the Bureau played it a little fast and loose. Forgive me if I don’t immediately retreat to my underground bunker with my collection of assault weapons and munch on my survival crackers to await Big Brother’s Purge of the Undesirables. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/351 "2019-12-18T20:45:25Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I love all this FBI bashing. They were so anti-Trump, they kept their investigations completely under wraps during the campaign and election, while keeping the public very well informed on Her Emails every step of the way. This is evidence that they were anti-Trump, somehow, in the world where the sky is green. It’s not FBI bashing, look at the number of top level FBI officials that were fired or resigned. Look at the IG Report, the FISC judge chiming in, the current criminal investigation into FBI wrongdoing. Are you saying they should get a medal for this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/352 "2019-12-18T20:55:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Steele dossier isn’t bogus. At least, there is no evidence it is. I guess it depends on your definition of evidence. Did you use the same evidence evaluation to accept the Steele dossier as true? [Disinformation’ claim ‘galls’ dossier author Christopher Steele](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/17/disinformation-claim-galls-dossier-author-christopher-steele/) > [@](#): > > A competing evaluation emerges from the Horowitz report, which says: "The FBI concluded, among other things, that although consistent with known efforts by Russia to interfere in the 2016 U.S. elections, much of the material in the Steele election reports, including allegations about Donald Trump and members of the Trump campaign relied upon in the Carter Page FISA applications, could not be corroborated; that certain allegations were inaccurate or inconsistent with information gathered by the Crossfire Hurricane team; and that the limited information that was corroborated related to time, location, and title information, much of which was publicly available.” ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/353 "2020-01-13T00:08:37Z")
The FBI apologizes [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/us/politics/fbi-fisa-court.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/10/us/politics/fbi-fisa-court.html). From the link: “the F.B.I. had cherry-picked and misstated evidence about the Trump adviser, Carter Page”- I’m not happy the FBI felt this was OK, whether the target is Page or any citizen. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/354 "2020-01-13T03:16:31Z")
As I once asked the OP’s reference, who the fuck is Carter Page and why should I give a shit about him? Since then I’ve learned more but care less. These days the give a fuck about any bozos has stopped having much value. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/355 "2020-01-13T15:42:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > …who the fuck is Carter Page and why should I give a shit about him…? Because it isn’t about Page? It’s about law enforcement doing this to _anyone_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/356 "2020-01-13T18:33:16Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Because it isn’t about Page? It’s about law enforcement doing this to _anyone_. Well, the immediate issue is the FBI doing it to someone involved in a criminal organization, so that’s part of the puzzlement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=17)