# Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/101 "2019-12-10T00:26:10Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > What’s that got to do with the FBI lying about Carter Page? Please stay on topic. 😃 No really, you’re saying a friend of the Trump family, Christopher Steele, fabricated things about Carter Page. It’s up to you to explain the motivation. You stay on topic: were Javanka setting up Carter Page? Because I don’t believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/102 "2019-12-10T01:12:05Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Read the IG report. “We concluded that Priestap’s exercise of discretion in opening the investigation was in compliance with Department and FBI policies, and we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced his decision.” "We also concluded that, under the AG Guidelines and the DIOG, the FBI had an authorized purpose when it opened Crossfire Hurricane to obtain information about, or protect against, a national security threat or federal crime, even though the investigation also had the potential to impact constitutionally protected activity. " “We therefore concluded the FBI met the requirement in the AG Guidelines and the DIOG that Crossfire Hurricane be opened for an “authorized purpose,” namely “to detect, obtain information about, or prevent or protect against federal crimes or threats to the national security or to collect foreign intelligence.” We also determined that, although the investigation had the potential to impact constitutionally protected activity, the FBI’s decision to open the investigation was permissible under both Department and FBI policies because there was a legitimate law enforcement purpose associated with the investigation.” ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/103 "2019-12-10T01:53:47Z")
What does any of that have to do with the FISA issues regarding Carter Page, **Hamlet**? The FBI withheld evidence and lied to the court to obtain the first warrant and the subsequent renewals. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/104 "2019-12-10T02:03:26Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > What does any of that have to do with the FISA issues regarding Carter Page, **Hamlet**? Sorry to rain on your parade; I just thought it important to deal with the “police misconduct means no crime happened” conclusion that so many people desperately want to reach. > [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FBI withheld evidence and lied to the court to obtain the first warrant and the subsequent renewals. Yep. The FBI screwed up, and its been referred for possible prosecution, and changes should, and likely will, be made. It’s a shame that law enforcement occasionally acts over-zealously. I, for one, am glad you take such interest in curtailing the abuses of law enforcement, at least in cases when it tangentially effects a Republican. Drawing the conclusion that the misconduct was politically motivated or somehow negates the entirety of the investigation or the Mueller investigation is, however, complete and utter bullshit. I’m sure that’s not YOUR conclusion, but I think, in light of the responses from some members of the right, it needed to be said. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/105 "2019-12-10T02:13:52Z")
Haven’t read the report because the process of oversight has become tainted by political pressure. Horowitz, like Comey, seems like someone who prides himself on being a straight shooter, who tries to call balls and strikes but who has gotten sucked into the vortex of hyper-partisan politics. I get the very distinct feeling that Horowitz is hanging on, trying to thread a needle, trying to protect an important public institution from the relentless sledgehammer of political bias that the right wing is using against it – and in the process, I think he assumes that he has to find a way to keep his critics at bay. So he tosses them a little bit of meat (i.e. FBI made numerous errors blah! blah! blah!) while dutifully protecting the valuable mission that these agents performed. Were there technical errors in the execution of the FISA process? I’m guessing there were. A bigger problem is the power that the courts and congress have given presidential administrations and law enforcement agencies in the post-9/11 world, but Trump’s henchmen aren’t here to take back that power from law enforcement. They’re not complaining that the FISA process needs to be reformed (it does); they’re arguing that, FISA should be used to bust terrorists, not corrupt authoritarian presidents who want a leg up from foreign governments to win elections. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/106 "2019-12-10T03:51:00Z")
Based on pages 61 and 62 of the Horowitz report, I’m going to say that the answer to the OP is: The CIA told the FBI something in confidence which made it apparent that Page needed to be investigated. But, unable to use this information on the record, they had to bolster the information with some stretched and possibly falsified materials. That’s illegal but, at the same time, justified and likely to be an accepted component and risk of the job working in counter-intelligence with the CIA. You probably go into it knowing that one day you’re going to have to take the fall even though all you did was replace truthful and sufficient evidence that would satisfy FISC in all ways - but that you aren’t allowed to use - with something you can use but that won’t stand any deep scrutiny since it is a facade. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/107 "2019-12-10T03:56:51Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I get the very distinct feeling that Horowitz is hanging on, trying to thread a needle, trying to protect an important public institution from the relentless sledgehammer of political bias that the right wing is using against it – and in the process, I think he assumes that he has to find a way to keep his critics at bay. So he tosses them a little bit of meat (i.e. FBI made numerous errors blah! blah! blah!) while dutifully protecting the valuable mission that these agents performed. Possibly, but I think that’s ignoring a secondary aspect which is simply that Horowitz’s entire job description is to find flaws and critique them. It’s like if you’re a teacher, even when you write a ‘B’ at the top of someone’s essay - which is a pretty good grade - everything else that you write in the essay beyond that once letter will be negative and critical. Telling people where they have gone wrong is what you’re being paid to do. To a great extent, the only positive IG report is an empty one. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/108 "2019-12-10T04:20:00Z")
Since this thread is about what may have motivated the FBI to lie about Carter Page, this seems relevant: > [@U.S. Attorney John H. Durham](#): > > “I have the utmost respect for the mission of the Office of Inspector General and the comprehensive work that went into the report prepared by Mr. Horowitz and his staff. However, our investigation is not limited to developing information from within component parts of the Justice Department. Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the U.S. and outside of the U.S. Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the Inspector General that we do not agree with some of the report’s conclusions as to predication and how the FBI case was opened.” ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/109 "2019-12-10T04:24:40Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Based on pages 61 and 62 of the Horowitz report, I’m going to say that the answer to the OP is: > > The CIA told the FBI something in confidence which made it apparent that Page needed to be investigated. But, unable to use this information on the record, they had to bolster the information with some stretched and possibly falsified materials. > > That’s illegal but, at the same time, justified and likely to be an accepted component and risk of the job working in counter-intelligence with the CIA. You probably go into it knowing that one day you’re going to have to take the fall even though all you did was replace truthful and sufficient evidence that would satisfy FISC in all ways - but that you aren’t allowed to use - with something you can use but that won’t stand any deep scrutiny since it is a facade. The FBI left of the fact that Carter Page was a CIA Operational Contact with a “Positive Assessment”. The FBI knew he wasn’t a Russian agent. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/110 "2019-12-10T04:26:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Since this thread is about what may have motivated the FBI to lie about Carter Page, this seems relevant: Relevant, yes, but also not terribly convincing. Let’s say that I give you 100 FBI and CIA agents who are experts in Russian counter-intelligence and who neither gain nor lose anything based on the results of their output. Now let’s put you up against me, a lone sleuth with no such expertise nor brute manpower. Further, I am being run by people who may be complicit in the crimes being investigated and all relying on information that they give me. Whose results are more plausible? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/111 "2019-12-10T04:29:28Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FBI left of the fact that Carter Page was a CIA Operational Contact with a “Positive Assessment”. The FBI knew he wasn’t a Russian agent. Page number? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/112 "2019-12-10T04:41:24Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Haven’t read the report because the process of oversight has become tainted by political pressure. Horowitz, like Comey, seems like someone who prides himself on being a straight shooter, who tries to call balls and strikes but who has gotten sucked into the vortex of hyper-partisan politics. I get the very distinct feeling that Horowitz is hanging on, trying to thread a needle, trying to protect an important public institution from the relentless sledgehammer of political bias that the right wing is using against it – and in the process, I think he assumes that he has to find a way to keep his critics at bay. So he tosses them a little bit of meat (i.e. FBI made numerous errors blah! blah! blah!) while dutifully protecting the valuable mission that these agents performed. > > Were there technical errors in the execution of the FISA process? I’m guessing there were. A bigger problem is the power that the courts and congress have given presidential administrations and law enforcement agencies in the post-9/11 world, but Trump’s henchmen aren’t here to take back that power from law enforcement. They’re not complaining that the FISA process needs to be reformed (it does); they’re arguing that, FISA should be used to bust terrorists, not corrupt authoritarian presidents who want a leg up from foreign governments to win elections. I’m sorry, Carter Page had a history of working with spies, in fact he was caught up in the government surveillance of some Russian spies a few years back. Apparently, like many Americans, he was chasing the money that could be made if he owned shares in a formerly state-owned Russian energy company and he tried to cultivate some “ins” by obtaining non-classified publicly available information for them. Which, I believe, was not illegal. But it’s behavior that should merit extra scrutiny. I’m sure law enforcement was properly stunned when this character showed up on the a President’s foreign policy team, and they would have been justified in opening an investigation on that basis alone. The bar for opening an initial inquiry is not very high. Political consultants are routinely investigated for foreign agent registration violations solely on the basis of op-ed pieces they publish. If they write editorials pushing the agenda of a foreign country, and they aren’t registered as an agent of that country, they will probably be investigated. That’s one of those “the way law enforcement has always worked” things. You don’t need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to start an investigation, you just need a reasonable suspicion. It would’ve been negligent not to investigate Page, considering his history. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/113 "2019-12-10T04:46:34Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FBI left of the fact that Carter Page was a CIA Operational Contact with a “Positive Assessment”. The FBI knew he wasn’t a Russian agent. A search of the text revealed your reference. Carter Page, for your reference, is a nut job. Unfortunately, his essay relating American treatment of Russia to African American slavery has been taken down, but here’s a commentary that someone wrote on it: > **[Carter Gets a D - The American Interest](https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/05/06/carter-gets-a-d/)** > > And that’s with the benefit of substantial grade inflation. The quote that you are half giving is that the CIA gave a positive assessment of Carter Page’s **candor** (page ix). Likewise, President Trump had a lot of candor when he posted this tweet: > Surprisingly, nutjobs say stupid shit that they shouldn’t because they’re lost in their own little worlds. That’s good for people who want to keep track of what the nut jobs are busy at but it’s not really a complement. And it’s certainly not a voucher that you should take that person on and trust their actions without review nor concern. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/114 "2019-12-10T04:50:43Z")
Hey Ashai, I don’t know why I quoted you in post #112, I must’ve hit something by accident. I missed the edit window and couldn’t delete the quote. So just know my comment was a general reply to the thread, not a reply to your post. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/115 "2019-12-10T04:53:18Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The FBI left of the fact that Carter Page was a CIA Operational Contact with a “Positive Assessment”. The FBI knew he wasn’t a Russian agent. That means he worked with them AFTER HE GOT CAUGHT in order to stay on their good side. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t still a suspicious character. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/116 "2019-12-10T04:57:44Z")
From the report, for those who never went past the Cliff notes: > [@](#): > > NYFO CI agents believed that Carter Page was “passed” from Intelligence Officer 1 to a successor Russian intelligence officer {Intelligence Officer 2) in 2013 and that Page would continue to be introduced to other Russian intelligence officers in the future.181 In June 2013, NYFO CI agents interviewed Carter Page about these contacts. Page acknowledged meeting Intelligence Officer 2 following an introduction earlier in 2013. When agents intimated to Carter Page during the interview that Intelligence Officer 2 may be a Russian intelligence officer, specifically, an “SVR” officer, Page told them. he believed in “openness” and because he did not have access to classified information, his acquaintance with Intelligence · Officer 2 was a “positive” for him. In August 2013, NYFO CI agents again interviewed Page regarding his contacts with Intelligence Officer 2. Page acknowledged meeting with Intelligence Officer 2 since his June 2013 FBI interview. In January 2015, three Russian intelligence officers, including Intelligence Officer 2, were charged in a sealed complaint, and subsequently indicted, in the Southern District of New York (SDNY) for conspiring to act in the United States as unregistered agents of the Russian Federation.182 The indictment referenced Intelligence Officer 2’s attempts to recruit “Male-1” as an asset for gathering intelligence on behalf of Russia. On March 2, 2016, the NYFO CI Agent and SDNY Assistant United States Attorneys interviewed Carter Page in preparation for the trial of one of the indicted Russian intelligence officers. During the interview, Page stated that he knew he was the person referred to as Male-1 in the indictment and further said that he had identified himself as Male-1 to a Russian Minister and various Russian officials at a United Nations event in “the spirit of openness.” The NYFO CI Agent told us she returned to her office after the interview and discussed with her supervisor opening a counterintelligence case on Page based on his statement to Russian officials that he believed he was Male-1 in the indictment and his continued contact with Russian intelligence officers. The FBI’s NYFO CI squad supervisor (NYFO CI Supervisor) told us she believed she should have opened a counterintelligence case on Carter Page prior to March 2, 2016 based on his continued contacts with Russian intelligence officers; however, she said the squad was preparing for a big trial, and they did not focus on Pa.ge until he was interviewed again on March 2. She told us that after the March 2 interview, she called CD’s Counterespionage Section at FBI Headquarters to determine whether Page had any security clearances and to ask for guidance as to what type of investigation to open on Page.183 On April 1, 2016, the NYFO CI Supervisor received an email from the Counterespionage Section advising her to o en a investigation on Page. Mm, candor. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/117 "2019-12-10T05:00:24Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > That means he worked with them AFTER HE GOT CAUGHT in order to stay on their good side. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t still a suspicious character. A mobster that turns state’s evidence isn’t a mobster anymore, duh. And there’s no way they could possibly keep doing mobster things. It’s all right there. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/118 "2019-12-10T05:45:04Z")
Candor. > **['I think I’d take it': In exclusive interview, Trump says he would listen if...](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/id-exclusive-interview-trump-listen-foreigners-offered-dirt/story?id=63669304)** > > In an ABC News exclusive, President Donald Trump said he may not alert the FBI to overtures from foreign governments during the 2020 race. Clearly a sign of good and not criminal intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/119 "2019-12-10T13:35:30Z")
Wray: The inspector general did not find political bias or improper motivations impacting the opening of the investigation or the decision to use certain investigative tools during the investigations. Thomas: Including FISA? Wray: Including FISA. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/120 "2019-12-10T14:04:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Since this thread is about what may have motivated the FBI to lie about Carter Page, this seems relevant: The report proves that Barr is a lying conspiracy theorist (since Barr said that the Trump campaign was “spied” on), so why should anyone trust the integrity of his hand-picked “investigator?” Honestly, Barr’s “investigations” into how the Trump campaign got treated poorly should have as much credibility into Trump’s requested investigations into Hunter Biden. If anything, Congress should look into why Barr lied to them, which is a bigger deal than when Clapper misled Congress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=7)