# Why did the FBI lie about Carter Page on the FISA warrent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524 "2018-08-13T15:34:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/121 "2019-12-10T14:09:07Z")
“When you read the report … the headline is they didn’t find the things that Bill Barr and Donald Trump alleged. They basically found there was not political bias … it was proper to launch the investigation … and proper to seek a warrant on Carter Page” - Chris Wallace (Fox News) ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/122 "2019-12-10T15:56:16Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > “When you read the report … the headline is they didn’t find the things that Bill Barr and Donald Trump alleged. They basically found there was not political bias … it was proper to launch the investigation … and proper to seek a warrant on Carter Page” - Chris Wallace (Fox News) Here’s what John Durham had to say and he’s currently doing an investigation into all of this unlike Chris Wallace. > [@](#): > > I have the utmost respect for the mission of the Office of Inspector General and the comprehensive work that went into the report prepared by Mr. Horowitz and his staff. However, our investigation is not limited to developing information from within component parts of the Justice Department. Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the U.S. and outside of the U.S. Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the Inspector General that we do not agree with some of the report’s conclusions as to predication and how the FBI case was opened. It’s pretty clear that the FBI lied about Carter Page being a “Russian Agent”, they knew that wasn’t true all along. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/123 "2019-12-10T16:17:20Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > It’s pretty clear that the FBI lied about Carter Page being a “Russian Agent”, they knew that wasn’t true all along. Just like the CIA said that they approved of Page? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/124 "2019-12-10T16:49:22Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > … They basically found there was not political bias … They didn’t find any _documentary or testimonial evidence of_ political bias among the documents they reviewed and the people they interviewed, which is not the same thing as what you wrote above. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/125 "2019-12-10T16:50:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Just like the CIA said that they approved of Page? The CIA sent an email to the FBI indicating that Page was a source and an FBI lawyer altered that email to claim that he wasn’t and submitted it to the FISC. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/126 "2019-12-10T16:50:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They didn’t find any _documentary or testimonial evidence of_ political bias among the documents they reviewed and the people they interviewed, which is not the same thing as what you wrote above. Tell it to Chris Wallace. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/127 "2019-12-10T16:54:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They didn’t find any _documentary or testimonial evidence of_ political bias among the documents they reviewed and the people they interviewed, which is not the same thing as what you wrote above. What other sort of evidence is there? Opinion “evidence”? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/128 "2019-12-10T16:57:51Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > What other sort of evidence is there? Opinion “evidence”? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/129 "2019-12-10T16:59:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In legal proceedings – and I suspect in impeachment proceedings – it is. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/130 "2019-12-10T17:02:32Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > In legal proceedings – and I suspect in impeachment proceedings – it is. This has nothing to do with the FBI lying about Carter Page, they knew he wasn’t a Russian Agent they also knew that he was a CIA Asset. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/131 "2019-12-10T17:04:15Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > In legal proceedings – and I suspect in impeachment proceedings – it is. No, it’s different, which is why we have judges and juries that declare people “not guilty” instead of “innocent”. ‘We didn’t find enough evidence to convict’ is different than ‘We basically found that a crime was not committed or that the accused did not do it’. I’m confident you’ll fully understand this point right about the time that President Trump is acquitted by the Senate. ETA: **EasyPhil** , apologies, you’re right, this is a tangent, and I’ll drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/132 "2019-12-10T17:12:36Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > This has nothing to do with the FBI lying about Carter Page, they knew he wasn’t a Russian Agent they also knew that he was a CIA Asset. Saying this over and over doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/133 "2019-12-10T17:15:47Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The CIA sent an email to the FBI indicating that Page was a source and an FBI lawyer altered that email to claim that he wasn’t and submitted it to the FISC. Your average source is an incompetent drug addict criminal. If you tell me that someone is a source, than I am more liable to think that they’re a shady sumbitch who needs to be investigated, not less liable. You are, in essence, saying that the FBI made Carter Page look more innocent than he is, in their warrant. I’m suggesting that they did so because the CIA asked them to keep this on the down low. Whether that is the reason or not, I don’t know, but it fits more closely than the idea that they hid Carter’s status because they didn’t want to make the judge think that Carter was a loon who was known by the CIA to be traipsing around Russia talking to 3+ FSB agents and leaking everything anyone ever told him because he can’t keep his mouth shut. If you told the judge that why, gosh, he’d just approve that warrant in two seconds flat and that would be too easy! ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/134 "2019-12-10T17:15:50Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I’m sorry, Carter Page had a history of working with spies, in fact he was caught up in the government surveillance of some Russian spies a few years back. Apparently, like many Americans, he was chasing the money that could be made if he owned shares in a formerly state-owned Russian energy company and he tried to cultivate some “ins” by obtaining non-classified publicly available information for them. > > Which, I believe, was not illegal. But it’s behavior that should merit extra scrutiny. I’m sure law enforcement was properly stunned when this character showed up on the a President’s foreign policy team, and they would have been justified in opening an investigation on that basis alone. > > The bar for opening an initial inquiry is not very high. Political consultants are routinely investigated for foreign agent registration violations solely on the basis of op-ed pieces they publish. If they write editorials pushing the agenda of a foreign country, and they aren’t registered as an agent of that country, they will probably be investigated. That’s one of those “the way law enforcement has always worked” things. You don’t need proof beyond a reasonable doubt to start an investigation, you just need a reasonable suspicion. > > It would’ve been negligent not to investigate Page, considering his history. Carter Page has a history of working with the CIA and the FBI knew that, they also hid that information from the FISC. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/135 "2019-12-10T17:17:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Your average source is an incompetent drug addict criminal. If you tell me that someone is a source, than I am more liable to think that they’re a shady sumbitch who needs to be investigated, not less liable. > > You are, in essence, saying that the FBI made Carter Page look more innocent than he is, in their warrant. > > I’m suggesting that they did so because the CIA asked them to keep this on the down low. Whether that is the reason or not, I don’t know, but it fits more closely than the idea that they hid Carter’s status because they didn’t want to make the judge think that Carter was a loon who was known by the CIA to be traipsing around Russia talking to 3+ FSB agents and leaking everything anyone ever told him because he can’t keep his mouth shut. If you told the judge that why, gosh, he’d just approve that warrant in two seconds flat and that would be too easy! The CIA sent the FBI an email asserting that Carter Page was a source in good standing, the FBI altered that email and submitted that altered email to the FISC to renew the warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/136 "2019-12-10T17:29:24Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > The CIA sent the FBI an email asserting that Carter Page was a source in good standing, the FBI altered that email and submitted that altered email to the FISC to renew the warrant. Unless you see me denying that somewhere, I fail to see what you think you’re gaining from repeating your original statement. So to repeat my response: Your average source is an incompetent drug addict criminal. If you tell me that someone is a source, than I am more liable to think that they’re a shady sumbitch who needs to be investigated, not less liable. You are, in essence, saying that the FBI made Carter Page look more innocent than he is, in their warrant. I’m suggesting that they did so because the CIA asked them to keep this on the down low. Whether that is the reason or not, I don’t know, but it fits more closely than the idea that they hid Carter’s status because they didn’t want to make the judge think that Carter was a loon who was known by the CIA to be traipsing around Russia talking to 3+ FSB agents and leaking everything anyone ever told him because he can’t keep his mouth shut. If you told the judge that why, gosh, he’d just approve that warrant in two seconds flat and that would be too easy! ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/137 "2019-12-10T17:35:09Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You are, in essence, saying that the FBI made Carter Page look more innocent than he is, in their warrant. No, I’m not saying that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/138 "2019-12-10T17:48:38Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > No, I’m not saying that at all. I realize that you don’t intend to be saying that, but it remains the case. If I say that Roger gave me a good report on Charles, it matters that you note that Roger is a prison warden, that Charles is an inmate who murdered five children and abused their corpses, and that I was asking about his diet. Summarizing is all well and fine so long as we’re clear what we’re actually talking about and being honest about what we should take away from the story. That the CIA gave Page - a useful idiot, being run by the FSB - a positive review as someone who you can get info out of is not, under any reasonable understanding, a statement of support for innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/139 "2019-12-10T17:55:32Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Carter Page has a history of working with the CIA and the FBI knew that, they also hid that information from the FISC. And? Do you have an actual point, or do you simply want to repeat yourself? The investigation concluded there was no political bias and that, despite those improprieties by the FBI, there was more than enough evidence to warrant an investigation. Repeating “The FBI screwed up” over and over and over isn’t much of a “Great Debate”. And it has very little actual import to the investigation itself, to the Mueller investigation, or to the President’s repeated attempts to obstruct justice. It’s akin to a police officer not reading a guy his Miranda rights (and not questioning him), and the guy claiming that means he can’t be convicted of any crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524/140 "2019-12-10T17:56:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That the CIA gave Page - a useful idiot, being run by the FSB - a positive review as someone who you can get info out of is not, under any reasonable understanding, a statement of support for innocence. And, the fact that months after the FISA warrant was granted a lone FBI lawyer altered an email about Carter Page is not, under any reasonable understanding, evidence that the FBI lied about Page to get a FISA warrant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-did-the-fbi-lie-about-carter-page-on-the-fisa-warrent/819524.md?page=8)